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DOHC L6, Was somebody looking for the Goerz-Paeco DOHC L6 Head ?


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#1 Vintageracecar

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 06:48 AM

Well Folks,
Just pulled the Goerz-Paeco DOHC L6 Head out of storage. (See pictures below)
Didn't realize that there was that much talk about this head on line.
Remember meeting Tony D in about late 2004 or early 2005 at a Club Z gathering in
Fullerton, Ca. Spoke to him on the phone a few times after having met him in person.
Tried to follow up on a couple of leads Tony gave me. No luck on tracing down any
history of the head or the two names Goerz or Peaco either.
Had not heard from him after that. By the way, my name is Mike, not Richard. No
sweat about it.
As Tony stated in one of the Threads, I contacted Graf Albrecht von Goertz as well.
Called him sometime in 2005 at his Rittergut (Castle) in Brunkensen, Germany.
We had a very nice conversation for several minutes. Mr. Goertz was very excited to
be getting a phone call from California, but he did not remember ever having anything
to do with this DOHC head or even the design of it. His last advice for me was, to call
Bob Sharp and tell him that I spoke with Mr. Goertz. Well, life got busy and I never
followed up on calling him. Shortly after that, the head, drill fixture and the drawings
were packed up and put in storage.
Was going to use the head in one of my own cars. Owned a 74 260Z for the last 5 years.
But like most of you guys, I have way too many projects as well.
That darn internet. People have been looking and talking about this head for many years.
Anybody wanting more info, send a PM or contact me through the site.

Mike

Attached Files



#2 Tony D

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 10:20 AM

The drawings would be nice to have reproduced...if for nothing else to document a lost craft. Everything was hand drafted and in English fractional units!

If nothing else, it would make a bitchen print on a T-Shirt!

I still have a small album of the photos I took that day with 'Mike' and a 714 phone number on the back of a yellow post-it! Obviously, you got a new number!Posted Image

Good to see all is well with the jigs, fixtures, etc...

"Rapid Prototyping" is a possibility, with the current core, drawings, etc... I think a modern casting could be made to replicate it keeping the historical mystery head intact. And likely giving more consistent metallurgy.

This project still intrigues me!
Misanthropic Anthroparion Class 5 Hoarder, aspiring to posthumous fame as my containers are cut open and the market floods with crap I've squirrelled away over the years! I endeavour to persevere...

#3 Xnke

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 08:31 PM

I would be very interested in seeing the drawings, I am a fan of the old-style prints. We have some at the office from the 60's and early 70's, and they are what inspired me to take drafting and design in highschool and vocational school, till those programs were dropped in favor of computer aided design.

#4 Tony D

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 09:06 PM

Yeah, it was the first time I'd seen fractionals and not decimals on a machining print.Whomever set up that Bridgeport needed to be good with his math!
Short of small sheet metal drawings I never drew fractions. Everything or the government and military was decimals.
I'd love a copy just to hang on the wall. They could have used restoration/transfer, appeared o be on original Vellum and principled not particularly inked!

Edited by Tony D, 19 September 2012 - 09:08 PM.

Misanthropic Anthroparion Class 5 Hoarder, aspiring to posthumous fame as my containers are cut open and the market floods with crap I've squirrelled away over the years! I endeavour to persevere...

#5 Vintageracecar

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 10:22 PM

Since Tony is not willing to share his pics with you guys and some of you may have never seen what the Goerz-Paeco L6 head looks like, here are a few picsAttached File  GP1.jpg   340.51KB   235 downloadsAttached File  GP2.jpg   338.23KB   247 downloadsAttached File  GP3.jpg   287.99KB   217 downloadsAttached File  GP4.jpg   232.56KB   221 downloadsAttached File  GP5.jpg   344.85KB   221 downloadsAttached File  GP6.jpg   302.17KB   221 downloads:

#6 Vintageracecar

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 12:00 AM

A few more pictures. To show how close and how different a stock L6 head is, when compared with the Goerz-Paeco L6 Head.

Attached File  GP8.jpg   347.32KB   170 downloads

Attached File  GP9.jpg   348.04KB   182 downloads

Attached File  GP10.jpg   340.46KB   201 downloads

Attached File  GP7.jpg   113.89KB   217 downloads

Attached File  GP11.jpg   245.18KB   142 downloads

#7 Perfect240z

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 05:42 AM

So in all likely hood, How much would it be to recreate a head like this to sell, and what is its power output/drivability on the road?

#8 ctc

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 01:54 PM

So in all likely hood, How much would it be to recreate a head like this to sell, and what is its power output/drivability on the road?



Read this link,Duesenberg head for Jay Leno to give you an idea of low production number casting costs. You can also search on the OS twin cam head to see what they want for their new twin cam head.

I'll simplify the quote from about halfway down the article

"The new heads look terrific; I bought the first one. They sell for $42,000 each with the valves installed. Jim's not going to make a lot of money on this project. But he's doing something important."

I know it's not apples to apples, but cost depends on volume. Also think of it this way, Engineer gets paid ~$50 an hour, Machinist gets ~$20 an hour, Assume 160 engineering hours and double those hours for shop time and you are at $15,000 for a bare casting. I pulled the hours number out of my rear, but they are realistic and represent a months labor by one guy and months worth of shop time for 2 guys.

Now add in cams, valves, intakes, exhaust, cooling manifolds, head gaskest......... and the cost adds up pretty quick. Also, try to find a foundary that will even work with such low volume and the cost ussually goes up.

Also this discussion on custom cast cylinder heads, http://forums.hybrid...er/page__st__40

My 2 cents on the question asked.

Also, I don't want my comments to distract from the brilliance and hard work that has already gone into that head. Looks to be top notch engineering and foundary work. I wish there was some way to produce that head with a realistic price. Maybe those HybridZ'ers with contacts in China could make inquiries.

Edited by ctc, 21 September 2012 - 02:32 PM.


#9 SleeperZ

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 02:12 PM

I want to know where the spark plugs go, that head is all valves.

1978 280Z -->  L28ET, MS3, T3/T4 (V1/V2), 440cc injectors, Spearco IC, BW T5

 

Otherwise all stock.


#10 ctc

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 02:21 PM

Mike, question for you,

Do you know if the Paeco part of the cast has anything to do with these guys?

Paeco history

It was a company owned by Carl Stringfellow and apperently sold parts to SCCA racers.


Edit, from this post, at lease the current Paeco knows nothing about this head.

http://forums.hybrid...d-descriptions/

Edited by ctc, 21 September 2012 - 02:26 PM.


#11 HowlerMonkey

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 02:32 PM

If you're going to make an expensive casting, the profit margin would be much higher if you made strengthened crankcases for Rolls Royce Merlin engines.

You could sell at least 10 right off the bat.

#12 johnc

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 02:37 PM

Just cast Harley transmisison cases with "HOG" engraved in the side. You'll sell a million of them as long as they are shiny and big.
----- John Coffey, Fabricator at Benton Performance, LLC

#13 Z Greek

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 05:48 PM

I want to know where the spark plugs go, that head is all valves.


Sparkin' bolt holes do look conspicuously absent.

"If you blow up before the finish line, you were too hot, if you blow up after the finish line, you were not hot enough, if you blow up at the finish line, you were set up just right." Burt Munro


#14 Xnke

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 06:37 PM

the head is NOT finish machined, the plug holes need to be drilled and tapped, the cam bores need to be finish-honed, the valve guide bores need to be sized and guides fitted, the core plugs need to be fitted, the water jacket holes need to be faced, cleaned up and bolt holes drilled and tapped, there is a LOT left to do to make that a running head.

#15 Tony D

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 04:32 PM

1348208522[/url]' post='1020357']
Since Tony is not willing to share his pics with you guys and some of you may have never seen what the Goerz-Paeco L6 head looks like, here are a few picsAttached File  GP1.jpg   340.51KB   235 downloadsAttached File  GP2.jpg   338.23KB   247 downloadsAttached File  GP3.jpg   287.99KB   217 downloadsAttached File  GP4.jpg   232.56KB   221 downloadsAttached File  GP5.jpg   344.85KB   221 downloadsAttached File  GP6.jpg   302.17KB   221 downloads:


UNTRUE! Those photos have been on the net for YEARS!
Though some asshats aren't worth dealing with, and to them I say " go find them "
Misanthropic Anthroparion Class 5 Hoarder, aspiring to posthumous fame as my containers are cut open and the market floods with crap I've squirrelled away over the years! I endeavour to persevere...

#16 Tony D

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 04:43 PM

The head is universal configuration, symmetrical. You could put the intake on the opposite side just like OSG or S20.
It's a bare head ready to finish machine into a working prototype.
As I said, with the advances in 3D printing and Rapid Prototyping Technology, already having a set of FULL SIZE BLUEPRINTS makes doing THAT a MUCH better idea than finishing this head. Dupe it as a rapid prototype and finish THAT as the foundational machining setup would already be in the programming of the machining center.
The jigs and fixtures that one with the head are from a time before five axis Haas Milling/Machining Centers.
From a modern rapid prototyping casting, the five axis work from the blueprints would make this MUCH EASIER -- and easier to reproduce!
The head as it is would likely have to be manually set up and manually finished...not something I'd trust to many places.
IMHO the piece is a historical artifact, and should be preserved. It's TRUE GOLDEN VALE is those blueprints.
From them... All following steps are downhill.
I wonder what Derek could do with those prints? Better yet, wonder what kind of period correct intake he could cast?
Misanthropic Anthroparion Class 5 Hoarder, aspiring to posthumous fame as my containers are cut open and the market floods with crap I've squirrelled away over the years! I endeavour to persevere...

#17 Derek

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 09:32 AM

I finally got this crap out of my head and you had to wave this in front of me :)

Yes a copy of the prints are a good starting point. Often times though the prints are way off from the final castings. I do a lot of parts for a kit helicopter based on an old Sikorsky. The prints I get are from the 50's and were hand drawn by the the draftsman at sikorsky. Most times if I build to the prints he part wont fit. If I work from an original part it fit's every time.

If someone came to me with this project this is how I would do it.
3D scan the original with my structured light scanner.
Develop a solid model based on the exterior scan.
Design the water core, intake, and exhaust system based on observation of the original casting and print.
Make any changes to the design deemed necessary for use in modern machining and usage.
Rig the model with the necessary gating, core prints risers etc.
Have the sand mold and cores 3D printed at exone in texas.
Ship the printed sand to the foundry and pour.
Hope like hell your gating is right and you get a good pour as you only get one chance.
Bask in the glory that technology can afford.
Then fap

Derek

EDIS Mounting kits are BACK IN stock!!!
http://datsunworks.com/page3/page4/


#18 mrcheeze36

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 02:32 PM

...Hope like hell your gating is right and you get a good pour as you only get one chance.
Bask in the glory that technology can afford.
Then fap

Derek


LOL
Posted Image
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72' Datsun 510 - RHD

#19 Tony D

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 07:55 PM

I am an agent of the Devil, my initials "TD" may indicate I am indeed he, but this is just an ugly rumour...
Misanthropic Anthroparion Class 5 Hoarder, aspiring to posthumous fame as my containers are cut open and the market floods with crap I've squirrelled away over the years! I endeavour to persevere...

#20 HS30-H

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 02:12 AM

The head is universal configuration, symmetrical. You could put the intake on the opposite side just like OSG or S20.



Tony,
S20 head is not symmetrical. The inlet and exhaust ports are a similar shape and with a similar manifold bolt pattern, but the inlet side has multiple water passages for the inlet manifold to mate up with. Similar situation with the OSG TC24-B1 too: It has the external coolant log running along the top of the exhaust manifold, and that mates up with the coolant passages in the block.

Switching of the exhaust and inlet sides on both heads would require a complete re-design of the coolant passages, with the knock-on effects needing to be dealt with too ( oilways, bolt holes etc etc ).

Alan T.

PS, pics of my 432R replica project's 'K3' S20 head for reference:

Posted Image
Posted Image




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