Exotic "SOUNDING", high revving V8! Read "ENTIRE" thread before posting!!!

[BRAAP]

Just ran across another interesting tidbit on the Cerbera V-8. Apparently the cylinder banks are not Vee’d at 90 degrees, but rather at 75 degrees, which would make it an odd fire V-8… Hmmm.. Unless they manufactured the crank with the crank pins off-set 15 degrees, (like the GM 4.3 V6, Buick even fire 90 degree V-6, etc) .. Hmm…. Can anyone dig up a picture of a Cerbera single plane crank? (I don’t trust the details 100% in tech articles)

http://www.pistonheads.com/tvr/cerbera/faq.htm

Originally Posted by Cerbera’s tech page

...... Like most Ferraris, the Cerbera's AJP8 engine uses a flat-plane crank. "Flat-plane" means that the crank throws are all in a single plane........

......The unusual exhaust sound is made even more weird by the "V" angle not being 90 degrees. Its 75 degree angle means the engine doesn't behave exactly like two four-cylinder engines since instead of the firing intervals being 90 + 90 degrees apart they are 75 + 105 degrees apart.....

[ajd4bmw]

Originally Posted by BRAAP

Definitely either an F-1 or Indy power plant.

For anyone wanting to know the real definition of scary fast or the more aptly termed stupid fast, that video is a great example..

(I want one)…

This car could be a norma m20 or osella pa20. It has a bmw I6 tuned by armaroli, sweet sounding i must say.

I joined this forum just for this thread.
I am also on the quest for a engine with a metallic scream,i like to think of myself as a connoisseur of fine engine sounds. Flat plane v8's are awsome but big $$$, ferrari, judd, lotus, tvr, cosworth.
here are some vids of other motors that scream

s2000 itb sounds like flat plane http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkAFTYoyK2U
another osellahttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTRDQDAWYCQ
jgtc nsx http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADWKjp4yIBE
KPGC10 old skyline http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nzqz-DUDuz0
brm v16,not lambo sounds like 90 degreehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9m6NGVvWS0
and my favorite ferrari 412 http://www.farzadsf1gallery.com/f1_s...F1Ferrari2.mp3

Pretty much every configuration except 180 v8 hehe. Good luck on finding your dream motor.

[tannji]

That last one of the Ferrari 412 gave me goosebumps... but my favorite of the bunch was the KPGC10. Some of that might be due to nostalgia and the visual.... but regardless, such a great sound.

[ajd4bmw]

Originally Posted by tannji

That last one of the Ferrari 412 gave me goosebumps... but my favorite of the bunch was the KPGC10. Some of that might be due to nostalgia and the visual.... but regardless, such a great sound.

I agree with you that the KPGC10 is sweet, i want my e30 to be a german version of that.

PrOxLaMuS© A small displacement oversquare straight six with itb's would be pretty sweet sound wise. I'm on the same quest for f1 like sound.

bmw m1 I6 has nice soundhttp://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bvTSDtA51I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-c-nYpic6A a rb20 like this would be a sweet swap.

Sorry to butt into this forum as i have.

[BRAAP]

First off, welcome to HybridZ.

Secondly, no apology, you aren’t butting in, your contributions to this thread are appreciated. Please continue.

[OlderThanMe]

There is a member here building a seriously undersquare L6 right now... I don't know if he wants it revealed so I'll keep quiet about the name...
should sound sick at 7k+ rpms...

[Tombarace14]

See thats what id like to have. Something that spins 8-10k.

[TeamNissan]

I would say something inline would be much easier platform to start off then any other for spinning 8-10k no?

I mean a s2000 tachs out at like 9k.

[OlderThanMe]

oops I meant over-square... not under...
Thanks for pointing that out...(you know who you are.)

[BRAAP]

Ok, Team Nissan started another thread, and in one of my replies in that thread, the concept of possibly actually doing this concept hit me. Even if it doesn’t produce big power, it “should” run good enough to be fun and have lots of WOW factor at the various Nissan shows and events. (Darn you Team Nissan! This totally goes against what I’ve always preached about always building as big as you can afford. This concept is starting to sound like a fun “do it only because you can” type project and it could end up being financially realistic, depending on how much machine work and parts research one is willing to do on their own of course.. ).


First, the idea was a small displacement V-8. I thought why not use the SBC or SBF and just destroke the crap out of it. This would be a VERY over square set up, (I love OVER SQAURE engine designs, for less valve shrouding and because they are generally high winders.. ) Well I did some calculations and here is what I came up with..


If you could use the SBC or SBF block with the 4.030” bore, with the following custom stroke cranks;

2”-------stroke = 204 CID/ 3343 CC
1 3/4”---stroke = 179 CID/ 2933 CC
1 5/8”---stroke = 166 CID/ 2720 CC
1 1/2”---stoke = 153 CID/ 2507 CC
1 3/8”---stroke = 140 CID/ 2294 CC
1 1/4”---stroke = 128 CID/ 2098 CC


Compression ratio with 4.030 bore, 2” stroke, true flat top pistons
58 CC head 7.2:1
64 CC head 6.7:1

Just for reference, same set up but with 1 1/4” stroke
58 CC head 4.9:1
64 CC head 4.6:1



1) A SBC block 4.030” bore, OE Vette 58 CC heads, or aftermarket heads, preferably AFR, use OE replacement over the counter common domed pistons for either the 302, 327 or 350, (differing pin heights to more closely match the rods you find), find a set of rods from another application that will work with either of the 3 different over the counter cheap domed pistons, then, with access to a lathe, you could machine your own billet single plane crank with a stroke around 2”, (adjust the actual stroke to put the pistons at zero Deck at TDC). You’ll have a “semi” budget high winding single plane V-8. 9-10K RPM should be doable even with cast pistons with a 2” stroke, add a cross ram ITB like pictures below. Lot so of wow factor with the hood up, and that cool high RPM single plane V-8 BRAAAAAAP with the hood down..


2) Same scenario, but with flat top pistons for a boost-able 7.2:1 comp ratio, add either an Eaton M-112 super charger or a pair of hair dryers, 12-15 lbs of boost…


3) The lighter weight SBF 302 block, utilize the same game plans as described for the SBC, but has the potential for a bit of weight savings..

[EMWHYR0HEN]

One of my favorate sounding v8's . Ferrari 355, 3.5 V8. Amazing sound!

http://videos.streetfire.net/search/...7b009d4de1.htm

[BRAAP]

That videos is even more inspiration to start research on this 9000 RPM 3.5L SBC.. (Gave me Goose bumps.. )

[OlderThanMe]

Paul, Why does the CR have to be soo low? Can't you close the chambers down and get some pistons that will significantly raise compression back up to a usable level?
This idea is very cool!

[BRAAP]

Originally Posted by olderthanme

Paul, Why does the CR have to be soo low? Can't you close the chambers down and get some pistons that will significantly raise compression back up to a usable level?
This idea is very cool!

In trying to keep this a budget DIY style build up, I wanted to retain as many OE and off the shelf parts as possible, no brand loyalty, so long as it works, with the crank being hopefully the only one off custom part of this build up.

In doing so, the OE SBC heads came in three “basic” chamber volumes. 58, 64 and 72 CC. I choose the smallest, and as luck would have it, the early OE vette aluminum heads are 58 CC and will support 400 HP with a bit of port work, (I also port SBC heads, not just L-series..). As for those compression ratios I quoted earlier, those figures were with flat top pistons. As you noted, Domed pistons would raise the compression ratio and for a N/A build up, that would be the route to take. I feel a little head milling will also be needed as well.

The early 302, 327, and 350 hi po engines are available with domed pistons and there are a LOT of over the counter inexpensive domed pistons available for those engines. Being as Chev used only one rod length, (except for the 400 SBC which had a shorter rod length), that means the pin height for the 3” stroke of the 302, the 3 1/4” stroke of the 327 and 3.48” stroke of the 350, were all different by about an 1/8” between each one. Some quick figuring, with a 2” stroke, rod lengths for an over the counter 302 piston could be 6.2”, for the 327 pistons, 6.325”, and the 350 piston 6.44”. Now if you utilized domed pistons for a 350 that are designed around the 6” rod, on the 2” stroke, you could use a rod that was 6.74” long rod. With the short 2” stroke and those LONG rods, the rod to stroke ratio is also quite favorable, yet another plus for this theoretical build…

Again, Rod lengths for a 2” stroke SBC crank utilizing OE over the counter pistons could be 6.2”, 6.325”, 6.44” and 6.74”. Depending on the actual lengths of the rods available, we could fudge the stroke either way a smidge to accommodate the piston rod combo being as the cranks is custom made to begin with.

So now we need to find some decent quality OE rods from the wrecking yard that will allow the use of SBC writs pins, and in the length we need. Machining the small end of the rod is no issue, as long as there is enough material in the small end… Big end?.. doesn’t really matter as the crank is custom so we can make the crank pin diameter any diameter we need, within reason any how.

Update… In doing a quick piston search, finding pistons with enough dome to get us up to over 10:1 for N/A with a 2” stroke is not looking good.

Here is a KB Claimer piston, -14cc dome. With 2” stroke, 588 CC head, yields 8.9:1 CR
http://www.kb-silvolite.com/claimer....etails&P_id=18


Another KB Forged, -15.2 cc dome, yields 9.1:1
http://www.kb-silvolite.com/forged.p...tails&P_id=443


This one is the same as above, but for the 383, so a rod length of 6.565” could be used…
http://www.kb-silvolite.com/forged.p...tails&P_id=442


With the engine at a mere 3.3 liters, 9000 RPM will help get the N/A HP up to fun and livable Hybrid levels, even at only 9.1:1, but being as getting a more desirable N/A 10:1+ compression ratio is going to be a bit tricky, (read expensive with custom pistons), adding boost is looking more and more attractive.

[PrOxLaMuS©]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNAEVC4yLsQ&NR=1

Hmmm interesting animation of a Ferrari V8.. notice the dual plane crank?! I know the F430 has a single plane crank...

but maybe this is the type of V8 used in the F40?!

[TeamNissan]

Is it even worth all that for a 3.3 braap? I mean there are already dohc v8's in that liter range i.e. the bimmer 92-97 m60 3.0 v8 or even the yamaha ford sho v8 in at 3.4. Both run 10:1 stock. If the only one off piece is to be the crank I would have a duel plane made for a already small v8.

My reasoning is more nostalgic then do it just to do it. I nice small revy v8 kind of takes you back to 50's gt racing. Everyone knows we can go big and power full but I think it would be much harder to get say a 2.0 v8 reving to 10k reliably, itbs and such.

[BRAAP]

Check it yo… Even Braapizzles, Lego V-8 has a dual plane crank..
Mad engine skills, reppin Hyb yo…

[BRAAP]

Originally Posted by TeamNissan

Is it even worth all that for a 3.3 braap? I mean there are already dohc v8's in that liter range i.e. the bimmer 92-97 m60 3.0 v8 or even the yamaha ford sho v8 in at 3.4. Both run 10:1 stock. If the only one off piece is to be the crank I would have a duel plane made for a already small v8.

My reasoning is more nostalgic then do it just to do it. I nice small revy v8 kind of takes you back to 50's gt racing. Everyone knows we can go big and power full but I think it would be much harder to get say a 2.0 v8 reving to 10k reliably, itbs and such.

Good question. I have no idea what that BMW V-8 is going for dollars wise, and of course you would want the tranny with it. The SHO V-8, (both are dual planeV-8) I’ve heard it has the same bell housing bolt pattern as the V-6 variant, and that has been converted to RWD using a T-5. At that, a standard SBC could be built ,$$$$.$$, to rev similarly to what the SHO revs to stock, and you would have, that much more displacement doing it, i.e. power… Sound similar to the Nascar V-8, though I think they rev higher than the SHO and BMW V-8.

My thought with the more generic SBC and destroking it to that extreme with a 2” stroke is that even “OE cast” pistons would survive at 9500 RPM all day long, no sweat. And being as the crank would be custom, that would allow a single plane design for that Ferrari braap exhaust note, just like the F-355 on the video a few posts back, but the SBC versions could feasibly rev another1000-2000 RPM more, I think the F-355 redlines at 8800 RPM if. It would sound more like a sport bike or F-1/Indy engine with a single plane crank at those R’s..
Of course this crank could be built in dual plane as well, though if you were machining this yourself, the single plane would be easier and less work. The other beauty of the SBC version is with all the parts already available for it. With so much aftermarket support with heads, valve train, internal parts, etc.. the sky and your check book are the limit. Not to mention, parts are everywhere. If you want to alter the BMW V-8, good luck finding heads, cams, intakes, etc. and if it breaks? Probably better off just finding a whole other engine instead of trying to rebuild it..
The dollar per “exotic RPM whine” should be pretty good with the SBC, depending on how much parts sourcing and scrounging you are willing to do yourself. And it would be something that you built, not bought. Think of it this way. Just as Mega squirt is to EFI, this 2” stroke SBC would be to exotic sounding engines like sport bikes and Ferraris. Most of us can’t afford a Ferrari engine, but we might be able to duplicate its sound and possibly its power at a fraction the cost.

The only issues I can think of at this point that would need addressing for a SBC to handle spinning that high is valve train components and possibly the oil pump.

[Gareth]

The Rover/Buick V8 should be a good engine for high revving. It's compact, light, aftermarket parts are plentiful (escpecially in the UK), only a custom crank would have to be made to destroke it. I think that a 4,0 or 4,6 liter X-bolt block-based engine with enlarged bore, short stroke, valvetrain capable of high RPM, a radical cam, electronic ignition (possibly coil-on-plug system) and ITBs should be enough to make the Zed an exotic ride... There were some single plane cranks made for it (think Repco and their F1 efforts), but I don't know whether there is anyone who still makes any parts like this. I'm sure that most of the work would have to be custom.

[PrOxLaMuS©]

http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/GM...tification.htm

info on finding a good ol buick 215 engine