2JZGTE vs 2JZGE

[240Z_478]

Justin I am really impressed with the things you create in that solid works... If you start making flanges for the 2JZ I would like to get a copy of the flange dimensions to have them created as I am also looking into a 2JZ.

[JustinOlson]

Originally Posted by 240Z_478

Justin I am really impressed with the things you create in that solid works... If you start making flanges for the 2JZ I would like to get a copy of the flange dimensions to have them created as I am also looking into a 2JZ.

Where you looking for a intake or exhaust flange? I'm going to be drafting up a exhaust flange soon for my 2jzge. I dont think I will get into designing a intake flange for the 2jz right away. I will likely just design a bolt on plenum that mates up to the 2JZGE lower runners.

The thing is that the 2JZGTE and 2JZGE are different castings. The 2JZGE intake and exhaust flanges are different.

Regards,
Justin

[240Z_478]

Yeah I was looking into converting to the single turbo and the manifolds are not cheap at all... But I belive i will be going with the GTE when I order my motor.

[JustinOlson]

You can get a GTE exhaust flange from Full-Race.

http://www.full-race.com/catalog/pro...503f19aa9d6222

[Bean]

Whats up BLKMGK. I know you probably dont remember me, but I remember you on SF

DaveH has also pioneered a distributorless setup using a hall effect sensor and modifying the AEM to run it. The setup is currently on Probezilla right now. The BIGGEST benefit is that there is NO cas or distributor; therefore you can run the cheaper TT cams no problem. (what it was intended for).

The stacked TT gaskets work well but drop the compression a lot; like to 8:1ish. But yeah the GE responds to cam upgrades VERY well. Probably from the more restrictive intake and the freely flowing exhaust side.

Nice work on the divided setup, I bet it flows nicely so long as the cylinders are run to the correct divider. The 6in1 is supposedly the reason the fullrace makes so much power

Originally Posted by BLKMGK

Ya, fullRace makes some awesome manifolds but WOW they cost big bux! The key with these engines is airflow. On stock cams at about 700RWHP you'll start to run out of flow, swap in even mild HKS cams and watch power go WAY up - like 100RWHP up. IMO dump the OEM engine management and go AEM. Their setup is PnP with the OEM harness and there's lots of experience out there with this engine. lots of extra I/O too so you can get pretty trick with controlling things like boost and meth. Sadly it cannot control 16injectors so to run a true dual fuel system you have to get creative. If you go with someone else's system you can proably get some pretty good maps from the AEM guys.

Oh as I recall DaveH simply ran 2 headgaskets for the longest time on his NA-T to get the compression down. You need not get expensive HKS gaskets etc. to get this done. The GE internals will take a great deal of abuse too - 500HP is nowhere near it's final capacity!

[JustinOlson]

To do the manifold correctly for a true divided turbine housing like the gt42r has, you need to analyze the firing order of the engine.

The firing order of the 2JZGTE & 2JZGE are 1,5,3,6,2,4.

You then send alternating combustion events to each side of the divided collector. So for the front half of the divided collector you feed with cylinders 1,3,2. So for the back half of the divided collector you feed with cylinders 5,6,4. You need two wastegates, one for each side of the divided housing. This completely divorces the front 3 cylinders from the back 3 cylinders, turbine efficiency and response is increased. This is how you're seeing honda B18's making 30psi with the GT42R at 5500rpms. I'm not sure what the difference in spool up on a 6 cylinder is, but 4 cylinder guys are seeing 500-750rpm quicker response.

Justin

Justin

[Bean]

From what I hear and have read is that divided housings do sacrifice total flow though. Its a give and take thing of course

[BLKMGK]

Hi Bean, been a looong time! On the plus side my lawyer has filed papers and Sears is actually getting off their ass on paying me

Divided is supposed to spool faster, given a choice I'd want fast spool to give greater area under the curve. I'd also not go too big on the turbo unless it's a pure drag car. On pump gas you are octane limited anyway and having a really peaky power curve on the street sux. I could have slower cars pull from me leaving a light and then blast past them as boost came on. I'll do a smaller turbo next time for pump gas and leave the bigger one for the track.

DaveH was doing a good bit of that stuff when I was talking to him. Going distributorless is awesome, I hope he's helping others do the same. Looks like he has a business now and that's awesome.

Both motors probably respond well to cam upgrades. I know mine was limited to about 700HP - I couldn't boost any higher on my turbo and power tapered off at that point (GTE). Open it up with cams and it picks up BIG HP I'm told. Hope to find out soon - finally. The GE has probably got cams at least as restrictive!

[JustinOlson]

Well the idea for this build is to taylor it around E85. My 2JZ will never see race gas. Only pump gas and E85. From what I've seen, you can run around 30-35 psi safely on E85. I feel that at that boost, I will be about at the limit of what the GT4202 can deliever. We'll see.

I've also been looking into making this motor rev better then most supras do. I'm hoping I can gain some AREA under the curve by being able to rev to 9000rpm. Looks Like I will be doing MR2 spyder shimless lifters along with some 272 or 280's.

Justin

[BLKMGK]

30-35PSI is normally race gas territory. I know thatbefore I was willing to go that high I wanted a full tank of C16 onboard. E85 is good stuff but before I ran boost that high I'd certainly work my way up to it carefully and watch that knock sensor - tune it on something load bearing if you can NOT a DynoJet. sadly there's only ONE place nearby that I can get E85 and it's way out of the way

Stock valvetrain Supra go to 8K, you might not have to goto shimless buckets to hit 9K. Personally I don't think RPM is where I'd want my power and I'd want to try and get power up sooner down lower but to each his own. My 71GTQ came on around 4200 and was good to redline but 4K of power left me wanting more - with tall gears it wasn't too bad though.

There's a REALLY good shop out your way that you might want to talk to about your plans. Horsepowerfreaks.com is the shop, they're in Portland. BoostLogic is also good, located in Texas. Chris at HPF is a good guy and he had some excellent tuners working for him - a well setup shop too plus he's owned a Supra forever....

[Z-Gad]

I run 280 cams and shimless buckets in my head and have a self-imposed redline set at 8500 rpm's. I shift around 7800-8000 and the rpm's won't drop below 6500 on a drag pass, but none of that is required for your "modest goals". My 76-GTS is basically the same turbo as the GT4202, except it has a 3" outlet instead of the 4" outet and the turbine wheel is cut slightly different.

[JustinOlson]

Sounds good Mike. How do the 280 cams work out for you? Does anything need to be clearanced in the head to run them? I'd love to find a dyno comparison between the 272's and the 280's.

Regards,
Justin

[Scottie-GNZ]

Originally Posted by JustinOlson

Well the idea for this build is to taylor it around E85. My 2JZ will never see race gas. Only pump gas and E85. From what I've seen, you can run around 30-35 psi safely on E85. I feel that at that boost, I will be about at the limit of what the GT4202 can deliever. We'll see.

I've also been looking into making this motor rev better then most supras do. I'm hoping I can gain some AREA under the curve by being able to rev to 9000rpm. Looks Like I will be doing MR2 spyder shimless lifters along with some 272 or 280's.

Justin

What is your HP goal and what do you plan on doing with the car? You realize the power potential of a 2JZ with a GT42, 280 cams, 35psi and 9000 RPMs?

[Z-Gad]

Originally Posted by JustinOlson

Sounds good Mike. How do the 280 cams work out for you? Does anything need to be clearanced in the head to run them? I'd love to find a dyno comparison between the 272's and the 280's.

Regards,
Justin

My head was a JDM head and required clearancing of the casting for the cam lobes. I understand that the USDM heads do not require the clearancing atleast that was according to Crower. The HKS 272's drop right in and require nothing.
mike

[JustinOlson]

My goal is to making 850whp eventually with the setup. The engine will only live on e85, and I think thats very doable with a good tune. I've decided that I'm going R154.

I'm just going to start off slow and see where I go with it.


Justin

[Bean]

The E85 movement is getting big, but 30-35psi is pushing it IMO. I've seen plenty of dynos at around 25psi and some to 30psi... but at 30psi they felt they were at the limit.

Also the GT4202 wont be at its limits on just 30-35psi; IIRC you need to approach 40psi for that. And to do that you'll need to be running the L19 headstuds.

There are quite a few Supras revving to 9k rpms. Its rather common actually in the higher horsepower groups. Ferrera valvetrain, slightly oversized valves iirc, ported head, 272 cams and a standalone to bind them all.

850whp is a good power goal at those boost levels; though that particular turbo is capable of even more IIRC. But I think 30psi might be your limit. I have seen some very high boost runs on E85 + meth injection.

ALSO, make sure you set up the fuel system for E85. You need more fuel flow with E85 too, including either triple walboros or a weldon plus very large injectors. E85 requires more fuel to combust compared to gas; of course everyone knew that here, but just make sure you have the fuel capacity for your goal.

[BLKMGK]

850RWHP and you want to go 35PSI and BIG cams? Heh, I was making over 700 on STOCK cams, a 71GTQ, and race gas. I had 264 cams ready to go in it with a ported head and Ferrea valvatrain. I FULLY expected to pickup 100RWHP from the cams alone. I revved no higher than 8200RPMs or so. My expectations for peak power with the head and cams wasn't determined but I knew guys running nearly my EXACT setup who saw 100HP jumps from cams alone. The 34PSI I used to make my 700+ pulls was with the W/G freeboosting - it could boost no more due to restriction. I had a full 4inch exhaust - overkill

IMO I think you're underestimating what this motor will do. Your power goals can be met with a much more modest setup than what you seem to have planned. Honestly the E85 may be your limiting factor as pump gas was mine - 550RWHP on pump, 620 or so with meth, then race gas. Not sure where E85 falls but certainly higher than my 620! Figure the 620 got my Supra high tens, and ponder that in a lighter 240Z before you shoot for so much power...

When you move into the larger cams you must also worry about valve to piston interferance and idle becomes choppy. Personally I like the HKS cams and would stick with them. <shrug> I'd be wary of adjustable timing gears etc. and try not to adjust the intake side.

Not sure what you plan to do for an EMS (?) but if you run over 1Kcc injectors you'll want a p/h controller for sure as the injectors are tough to control - add big cams and it's a nightmare. You will need to size the fuel system accordingly as stated above - I like Walbros and would use 3 of those with staging as needed. Just two of those pumps were enough to overrun my regulator at idle so I staged them - at 700+ I had fuel pump left over but was going to move to 1Kccs with the cams\head. I ran twin feeds all the way from the back FWIW and used the stock Supra return which may have caused part of the issue. I wouldn't use a Weldon only because of noise but it might be easier to mount on a 240Z.

Anyway I think my point here is that you might want to really think about your goals and what's needed to reach them. I'm ith Scotty on this I think

[JustinOlson]

Just a example of what E85 has done on 4g63's. 41psi and 733awhp



My main goal with the big cams and shimless buckets is to gain a large sweet spot where the car makes power. I want to get away from the 1500rpm peak you see on a lot of supras with stock motors and big turbos. Sure they make big peak numbers, but the area under the curve isn't great.


Justin

[Bean]

Originally Posted by JustinOlson

Just a example of what E85 has done on 4g63's. 41psi and 733awhp



My main goal with the big cams and shimless buckets is to gain a large sweet spot where the car makes power. I want to get away from the 1500rpm peak you see on a lot of supras with stock motors and big turbos. Sure they make big peak numbers, but the area under the curve isn't great.


Justin

I'm with BLKMGK, I think you're reading too much into the antihype about the motor. The days of the smallish 1500rpm powerbands are behind us. While there are certainly peaks like it, the powerbands are much more broad than they used to be, certainly moreso than the peaky RB26. Maybe on the GT47-series turbos, but not on a GT42. Sadly, most of the "knowledge" about JZ motors being tossed around is usually 3rd or 4th hand information. Yes dynoqueens do exist and yes they were rather common at one time. They ran alphabet soup electronics mods and were limited to the stock 6800rpm rev limiter

Anyway, I dont forsee 850whp being controllable in an old Z-chassis in anything but a drag-race only car. Area-under-the-curve concerns will be the least of your problems. Try finding an IRS rearend that will handle that amount of power for that car. No stock Nissan unit will, thats for sure. 850whp will net you ~150mph traps I believe in a Supra... Now slice off about 600-700lbs.

[Bean]

Just for a little evidence:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeLXQdxiLDM

Its a GT4276, which is bigger than a GT4202, but still Not THAT much bigger.