ModernS30 Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Okay, I might sound like an idiot, but I want to rant about something and I'm sure a few fellow college students will agree with some things when I rant about them so I am going to go for it. It is my freshman year in college, I have learned quite a bit about how I need to prepare myself and study, although I learned the hard way by failing two classes my first semester. In this learning the hard way I have also learned about how colleges and book publishers work together to get the maximum amount of money out of your pocket and into their salaries as possible. I failed my math course, and the previous semester the books specifically made for IUPUI (Indiana University Purdue University - Indianapolis) is good for 3 classes, I was taking a class that was two of the classes combine, which is the third class. 15300 and 15400 are required classes, 15900 is a combination of the two sped up. I made the mistake of taking that class and not being prepared for such a class at such a speed and the outcome was not satisfactory. No big deal, life goes on, we learn from our mistakes and I will credit replace them with taking 15300 and 15400 and just be a little behind. Well I go to the class and learn that the book has changed in just a semester, although it isn't actually the book that has changed, but the way they do the homework. To do the required homework for the class you either need to buy a new book or purchased the $50 access code for the website (being the book cost $130 I opted for the code). Yes folks, I have to pay to do my homework that I already pay $1500 for the class for anyhow. I will get more into a rand on tuition a little later. Get this though, I am doing my homework, no big deal, I will get it done and suck it up, once again life goes on, I am going along doing my homework, first entire assignment I get a 100% on, cake walk, no big deal. Strolling through the second assignment, seems just as simple and I didn't feel like I was struggling, keep in mind this is online homework on a web page I am doing from my computer, requirement for MATCH CLASS. I get to a problem, I work it out, tells me incorrect. I think, alright, I made a mistake, no big deal, I work through the problem over and over different ways, still it won't accept my answer. Change formatting, everything. The entire time the program gives me zero tips or hints at anything I might possibly be doing wrong and I can't find a problem worked out in the back of the book similar to this one so I can see how it should be worked out. So I just move on, have the same issue with a few more problems, but not all. I complete what I can but I am still very disappointed with the grade I get for not being able to get the answers to the problems. At this point I am pissed off and think I am a complete failure and an idiot. I move onto the third assignment, what I though was a relatively simple problem. Write it out in my notebook, work it out, submit my answer, Incorrect. Again, I am thinking I am an idiot, work back through it, can't come up with anything else, so I just start putting random crap in the answer box that doesn't even make sense. Incorrect, incorrect, incorrect, time and time again. What next, I go ahead and put the same answer I tried the very first time in again, and yep, you guessed it, CORRECT!!! Now how in the hell does a college level math program that mind you I PAY FOR! screw up this bad? Also how many of the problems I couldn't get right in the past assignment did I also have this issue with? I screen captured the "Previous Answers" pop-up window from the program called "WebAssign" to send to my professor and I will also be writing a formal letter to the head of the math department about my troubles and complaints. So I will share with you my screen captured image. Now I already have a problem with the fact that a math class has online homework. My opinion is that math is something you do with a pencil on paper, to be successful you must write it out in front of you. Otherwise you do not properly learn anything, this is the issue with calculators. I am 19 years old, and I realize more than professors in their 50's and 60's that calculators cause people to fail at simple math. Ask the average high school student what 8x8 is and they will probably struggle to tell you 64. That is a simple square problem! Why is my math homework done online? The professor is simply to lazy to spend some time grading papers and actually seeing what their students are doing incorrect so he/she can properly address the problem in lecture. I understand that it is the students job to ask the right questions, but the professor coming into lecture period already with a basic idea of what the students are going to need help with will yield for a more successful lecture period. Moving further from the rant about my online homework and touching back on the cost of books and how much of a rip off they are. I'm sure many of us on here have either attended, are attending, or plan on attending a some sort of after High school education, be it a trade school or a university. Prices for the classes range from $450ish into the thousands of dollars per credit hour for the courses depending on what school you attend, being a state school, or private, and the school name and other such variables. Why in the hell do I pay $1500 for my 3 credit hour class, mind you IUPUI is actually a cheaper school, and I still have to go out and pay $200 for a book? I feel as if books should be included in the cost of a class. Especially being that they have virtually knocked out the used book market by changing books each semester just enough to require the new book to be purchased. Heck, some classes require books that cost $80 and you may never open them. For example, my entry level engineering class ENGR 19500 required a text book. I never opened it, seriously, not once, I got a B+ in the class, it would have been an A but we had some shotty group communication for a project and I missed a deadline on one assignment. $80 for the book, brand new, still is brand new, not so much as a crease. The campus book store where I purchased it told me they would give me $7, where it would be resold for at minimum $60 used, but likely put on the shelf as brand new, because it is. I would rather burn the book for heat, or give it to a homeless guy to burn for heat. Not only this, but I live in campus housing, and pay good money to do so, the services from housing include free busing, which yea, they can say free all they want, but in reality I pay $850 a month for my on campus apartment, a 2 bedroom with 1 room mate, who also pays the same as I do. Now think about it, that is $1700 a month. In the Indiana housing market I could purchase likely two homes and afford utilities for both of them with this much money, and rent the rooms out, hell if I had credit I probably would. Any who, back to the bus service, that never runs on time and the buses are constantly over packed to a limit that is well beyond safe. Besides just that, there is no where to stand to wait for the bus, no shelter, nothing to keep you out of the elements, and since they are so random on scheduling it is a guessing game to run out in time when temps are well below freezing and snowing and icy outside. So I pay for that, then I still have to pay $95 more dollars each semester just to park my car in my apartment parking lot, which is usually overfull anyhow, oh and if you forget your permit one day, actually it wasn't in the truck for just over 8 hours, from midnight, till 8:19am and I got a ticket for $20 dollars, the office wasn't even open so I couldn't file for a lost permit or purchase a new permit in this time. All in all what I am really trying to say here, and I guess all in all it isn't really a secret. The education system in the United States is a dysfunctional, flawed joke centered around money and high horses with huge salaries that want to increase them by continuously ripping you off in each and every way they possibly can. Who the hell seriously has to pay to do their require homework after already paying $1500 for the class? I apologize if I sound like an ignorant fool or if my writing is clumpy and unorganized, it is rather late (3AM) and I am frustrated so this might now be the best thing ever written, be harsh if you must I just feel like I needed to share my thoughts with at least some of my fellow college students. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLOZ UP Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Don't get your books at the school's bookstore. I get all mine off Amazon for 60-80% of whatever they would be at the bookstore. Unless the teacher has made a compilation, though, which is usually cheaper but still a rip and you can only get it at the bookstore. But higher education here isn't that bad (although I've heard it's going down hill). It's the middle school and high school systems that are churning out complete idiots. There are a few documentaries on various causes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leon Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 This is called the "weed through" period of engineering school. Online homework is a terrible thing, make sure your professors understand this. Make sure you show them what happened and they'll help you out. Don't be scared to come to office hours! However, some students will quit because of it and others will plow on. It depends on whether you have the will and determination to go through stuff like this. Many times, the "weeding out" period does a decent job of sorting out those that are truly uninterested or incapable. Of course, some programs are better than others so use you judgment and more importantly others' experiences (hopefully someone older than you/alumni that went through the same program) in order to decide whether it's worth it for you. I got as many books off Amazon, or other sources, as I could. BTW, this is just a tip, but don't sell the books that are important to what you're studying. They'll come in handy as reference material. I hear you on the financial side of it and that is definitely a huge problem in the US. Fees were continually being hiked while I was in college, and I'm sure the trend will continue. I never did buy a parking pass throughout the duration of college (stick it to the Man!), I always scouted out the area and found the free spots whether I lived on or off campus. I enjoyed a longer walk to class, anyway. Good luck and YMMV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon 74 260Z Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 ModernS30's post absolutely made my day!!! You could give me a lifetime supply of Prozac, Crown Royal and Hoosiers and it STILL wouldn't have made me as happy as reading that first-hand account of engineering education! You see, I've been an engineer for 20 some years now and so I love to hear about all the crap and BS that potential future engineers have to endure because it severely limits the number of people who can do my job. And if there isn't a line of people waiting to take your job (like there is for 99% of the humanities majors), management has to put up with me doing things like wearing shorts and flip-flops to work in the summer, threatening to quit if they don't give me an overseas job assignment or taking off for 10 days to travel 2/3 of the way across the country to race my car. This ModernS30 guy sounds like he has some personal responsibility and a work ethic so he might be a potential threat to my job security. I'll be on my knees praying to the engineering gods to double the price of textbooks so he'll puss out and change his major to Woman's Studies or Classics or some other non-marketable skill. I mean, he's already figured out the problem with calculators/computers; if he discovers the dangers of "simulation software," he could end up smart enough for me to have my Incentive Bonuses trimmed or my future stock options reduced. And whoever told him to save his textbooks needs to STFU!!! If ModernS30 forgets what he is taught and can't look it up, well that may be the only way that I can still piss away money on that OS Giken LSD that I've convinced myself that I need... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leon Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 ModernS30's post absolutely made my day!!! You could give me a lifetime supply of Prozac, Crown Royal and Hoosiers and it STILL wouldn't have made me as happy as reading that first-hand account of engineering education! You see, I've been an engineer for 20 some years now and so I love to hear about all the crap and BS that potential future engineers have to endure because it severely limits the number of people who can do my job. And if there isn't a line of people waiting to take your job (like there is for 99% of the humanities majors), management has to put up with me doing things like wearing shorts and flip-flops to work in the summer, threatening to quit if they don't give me an overseas job assignment or taking off for 10 days to travel 2/3 of the way across the country to race my car. This ModernS30 guy sounds like he has some personal responsibility and a work ethic so he might be a potential threat to my job security. I'll be on my knees praying to the engineering gods to double the price of textbooks so he'll puss out and change his major to Woman's Studies or Classics or some other non-marketable skill. I mean, he's already figured out the problem with calculators/computers; if he discovers the dangers of "simulation software," he could end up smart enough for me to have my Incentive Bonuses trimmed or my future stock options reduced. And whoever told him to save his textbooks needs to STFU!!! If ModernS30 forgets what he is taught and can't look it up, well that may be the only way that I can still piss away money on that OS Giken LSD that I've convinced myself that I need... :lol: OMG, that is hilarious! ModernS30, forget what I said, you're threatening my ability to browse HybridZ at work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h4nsm0l3m4n Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 (edited) ModernS30's post absolutely made my day!!! You could give me a lifetime supply of Prozac, Crown Royal and Hoosiers and it STILL wouldn't have made me as happy as reading that first-hand account of engineering education! You see, I've been an engineer for 20 some years now and so I love to hear about all the crap and BS that potential future engineers have to endure because it severely limits the number of people who can do my job. And if there isn't a line of people waiting to take your job (like there is for 99% of the humanities majors), management has to put up with me doing things like wearing shorts and flip-flops to work in the summer, threatening to quit if they don't give me an overseas job assignment or taking off for 10 days to travel 2/3 of the way across the country to race my car. This ModernS30 guy sounds like he has some personal responsibility and a work ethic so he might be a potential threat to my job security. I'll be on my knees praying to the engineering gods to double the price of textbooks so he'll puss out and change his major to Woman's Studies or Classics or some other non-marketable skill. I mean, he's already figured out the problem with calculators/computers; if he discovers the dangers of "simulation software," he could end up smart enough for me to have my Incentive Bonuses trimmed or my future stock options reduced. And whoever told him to save his textbooks needs to STFU!!! If ModernS30 forgets what he is taught and can't look it up, well that may be the only way that I can still piss away money on that OS Giken LSD that I've convinced myself that I need... My dad always tells me stories about when he first started to lecture undergrads as a grad student/post-doc. All his friends that were like him, still in school getting their masters/phd degrees told him, "take it easy on them, you remember how hard it was for us when we were there." The guys that graduated and got jobs elsewhere said, "give them HELL! You know remember hard it was for us, make sure they feel it too! They have to earn their education!" Awesome! Oh and +1 for browsing HybridZ at work! If I time it just right I'll be done just in time for hour lunch break... Edited January 18, 2012 by h4nsm0l3m4n Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leon Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 My dad always tells me stories about when he first started to lecture undergrads as a grad student/post-doc. All his friends that were like him, still in school getting their masters/phd degrees told him, "take it easy on them, you remember how hard it was for us when we were there." The guys that graduated and got jobs elsewhere said, "give them HELL! You know remember hard it was for us, make sure they feel it too! They have to earn their education!" Awesome! Oh and +1 for browsing HybridZ at work! If I time it just right I'll be done just in time for hour lunch break... When work is slow, I purposefully stay off the forums for a day so that I have something to do! However, when we're busy, I have been known to go without lunch... it's a balance thing I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluDestiny Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 You're a freshman? I thought you were older. Anyway I get as many of my books online through friends. Most not all. Also I wait till the first day of class to ask the prof if we will be using the book for anything other than "reference". I do keep the math books though. Formulas can be tricky as hell. Your professors are idiots to use an online math system. Thats bs. Although if you are feeling stuck wolfram does help out some. And tuition is always lame, always will be, I go to Embry Riddle in Daytona and it sounds a lot like my school. By your 3rd year you'll get the hang of it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hughdogz Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 I attended UIUC for my BSME. Back in '95 we had to do homework over the web for Circuits class. The app was called Circuit Tutor, but we called it circuit torture! The only good web browsers out there back then was NCSA Mosaic and NetScape . You had to manually set up your IP using a trumpet winsock application. When we had to send in our answers, half the time CT and TP would crash. At least you can submit your answers reliably! Personally, I think it is good advice to save your Engineering textbooks. I still use mine at least once a week, since I'm in the "simulation software" industry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rturbo 930 Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 (edited) Your professors are idiots to use an online math system. Thats bs. Although if you are feeling stuck wolfram does help out some.It may not be up to them, but actually required by the department. For example, in my Calc classes, the professors HAVE to to something with Mathematica. Why the math department decided on that, I have NO idea... As for books, you can get them used, through amazon, share with a friend, borrow from someone who doesn't need it, etc. Unless of course, your school has a book made JUST for your school. And it's brand new. So your only choice is to buy the brand new textbook... yeah, my school did that... ******* greedy assholes. I'm starting to think I should have just knocked out the basics at community college. Oh well. Edited January 18, 2012 by rturbo 930 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZT-R Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 There is a capital X in the first submission and a lower case x in the final one. That is where human judgment outweighs a computers... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 "As you can see in the Syllabus, required book for the class is mine. Thank you for supporting me, and padding my published book sales!" Dr. Gordon Warner, Lt. Col USMC (Ret) University of Maryland College (Asian Division) Go Terps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluDestiny Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 "As you can see in the Syllabus, required book for the class is mine. Thank you for supporting me, and padding my published book sales!"Dr. Gordon Warner, Lt. Col USMC (Ret) University of Maryland College (Asian Division)Go Terps. Not too far off from that this semester. One of my classes is using a book written by the head of my department, Albert Helfrick( for all you Avionics guys) and my professor said wait till the new edition comes out to buy it, Brand new. Eff that I bought a used previous edition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 "And if there isn't a line of people waiting to take your job (like there is for 99% of the humanities majors), management has to put up with me doing things like wearing shorts and flip-flops to work in the summer, threatening to quit if they don't give me an overseas job assignment or taking off for 10 days to travel 2/3 of the way across the country to race my car." Muahahahaha! 250 days outside the USA in Asia this past year... Just a hint, two openings currently one entry level engineer bilingual (spanish) and one Senior Engineer position 'based' in Pittsburgh area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(goldfish) Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Also, double check that it does it with IE. crappy homework pages poorly written may have weird errors with chrome and other browsers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModernS30 Posted January 19, 2012 Author Share Posted January 19, 2012 Alright, see if I can cover a few quick responses. First, I was super pissed off when I wrote this, my day start out getting me and my laptop soaked when I was walking to class and Indiana weather decided it was going to randomly rain like it was a rain forest. Then I got a $20 parking ticket and tagged with needing to buy a new $95 parking permit. So I was just pretty crappy all in all. As for the books, I did get one book used, and math books and ones that seem semi important I am actually keeping, there were only two books I was going to sell back, but they wouldn't give me crap so I'll keep them as well. A large bit of the books seem to be made specifically for this University and a new edition with changes "Required" for the class is release seemingly ever semester to year. As for the error with the capitol X and the lower case, I didn't realize that after having calmed down later on today reviewing it again. Majority of the answers I will be getting wrong will be due to formatting issues, and the program doesn't have anything built in to give you hints if you are doing something like this. My Chemistry course last semester had online homework and it had built in hints if you had certain issues. All together the "WebAssign" program we are using is in its first use for the university this semester so I get to be one of the lucky test mules. I've already talked to my professor and she basically told me that as long as I make an attempt at it and I am doing well on the paper assignments/quizzes/tests then she is not concerned so much with the online homework. I am also planning to write a formal letter to the head of the math department voicing my concern on the issues with online homework in mathematics courses. While it may not make any change, if I don't make any effort at all then I sure won't know. The main thing that really pisses me off about the online homework is the fact that I seriously have to pay extra to do my homework, I can be enrolled in the class and pay for the class and everything but not be able to complete my homework until I pay to do it. As for the Internet Explorer, I may give that a shot. Cant stand that browser, I am a Chrome user, Firefox if not Chrome. I covered English and an elective credit dual credit in high school through Ivy Tech Community College. Also they won't take the dual credit Project Lead the Way class credits I got in high school. I took introduction engineering courses in high school as well. Kinda wish I went to Ivy Tech for a year just to get the math out of the way at a more affordable rate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZT-R Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Yea it should be cheaper if a course has online content as it greatly reduces expenses and work loads on the professors and the school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHO-Z Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) I was lucky classed were cheaper and some of my professors wrote thier own books, loose papers I put in a binder for my ME degree. Look at the bright side after you become an engineer you will add, subtract, multiply and divide, look in up in a book and know our answer makes sense. Hang in there, if you do not understand the subject go to the professor and sit on thier desk and have them go through what you do not understand. They do work for you. I had to write every problem out even if I had the solution in front of me. The Engineer In Training exam has about 10 differential equations the Professional Engineer exam only has simple algebra problems. It shows where most of us engineers use math. Edited January 20, 2012 by SHO-Z Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) College is not for everyone. There is always.......employment in the service sector. Edited January 19, 2012 by Trevor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98cobra+75280z Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 hang in there. i can't say engineering ever gets easier, because it gets much worse but if you keep at it youll get through to your degree. I am a senior at Purdue University in mechanical engineering and through these last four years there have been numerous times that the classes seemed to only get the best of me. But after 4 years of dedication i am about to graduate as an engineer and i can't think of many things that have given me that sense of accomplishment. hang in there, its worth it in the end Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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