Guest Anonymous Posted November 29, 2000 Share Posted November 29, 2000 Somebody told me there is an outfit in Florida which makes a conversion kit to put a small block 302 Ford in a 240z. Anyone hear about this? My car (71 240 with excellent body and Datsun Competition springs, aftermarket front and rear sway bars) sits cold and lifeless with an empty engine bay. I want to do the V8 conversion and am debating Ford/Chevy. I want to drive the car lots and handling is very important to me with visions of Solo competions dancing in my head; this is the main reason I want to go Ford as the weight advantage is real. Comments? Does the set-back Chevy equal the Ford in real world handling? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy 77zt Posted November 29, 2000 Share Posted November 29, 2000 if you are worried about handling build your own motor mounts and put in a 302 ford with aluminun heads.set the motor way back-the distributor is in front of engine.weight balence will improve -ford engine is lighter and will be almost behind crossmember.some day when i get some money i am going to yank my l28 turbo and install a built 5.0-but i am a ford dealer tech for a living. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted November 29, 2000 Share Posted November 29, 2000 With aluminum heads, water pump, etc, a carbed 5.0 is darn near the weight of the original six. I put mine as low and rearward as possible and everything except the timing cover/water pump is behind the strut C/L. C.G. sin't changed much either. From a handling perspective, It would be hard to beat this combo. Larry Cutter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted November 29, 2000 Share Posted November 29, 2000 Well I have done all the requisit mods to my small block chevy and got it to within 25# of the L6 motor. I moved the battery to the back and I think I broke even as far as the weight issue went. However, the ford does offer about an extra inch of slide rearward towards the firewall. That is about the only gain to be had. If someone is making a Ford conversion kit, I'd be up for that as well, since I'm working on my 2nd V8 Swap into a Z. Although I'm of the opinion that building the SMC is cheaper, with a 5.0 FI powerplant the used parts market is a goldmine of deals just waiting to be picked! As far as handling goes, Mine is the JTR method of hybrid and my car was built for autoX, road course events, and some top speed runs. My car is very neutral at speed. I don't have coil overs yet, but I do run Konis and MSA Springs. I am running a rear sway bar, and I have all the regular suspesnion mods, including a cage and the Nissan Quick steer knuckles, Poly Uerethane everywhere and a solid Diff mount. I think that regardless of the motor you pick, if you engineer the build up of the vehicle and stick to a well founded plan for the intended use, then you should be able to produce a well handling V8 conversion... For what its worth, I'm not a Ford guy, I'm not a Chevy guy... I'm a CAR GUY! Mike Mike ------------------ "I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!" mjk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pauli Posted November 29, 2000 Share Posted November 29, 2000 if weight is that much of an issue, you could get an aluminum block... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted November 29, 2000 Share Posted November 29, 2000 Well actually the Ford 302 is some 90lbs lighter than the Chevy from the get-go. (narrower, thinner casting?), so that with its extra rearward movement makes it a little better from a weight standpoint. I won't get into a C vs F battle as it comes down to personal preference (why is people get so nuts about this stuff? They both have they're virtues, they're just different designs, get over it people). The two big things different for the Ford is requiring the use of a dual sump pan (like in the 85+ mustang I think it is) and having to use a remote oil filter (and that is if you use the JTR type setback motor mount scheme). Truly and this is MY opinion and worth what you paid for it, the only thing keeping the Ford from being a more popular swap, are the higher price of parts, and the availability of a Z motor mount swap kit, or book. It actually fits in the space better, can use standard exhaust manifolds (granted certain years are required) that don't require any weird angle milling to fit. I know the last point isn't important to some, but for those that are looking for a good driver and without worrying about leaking, rusting, or expensive coated headers its just the ticket. Oh well, as I said, thats my opinion and I'm probably leaning toward Chevy in my swap because of the mounts issue and I'm more familiar with the SBC. But I did want to acknowledge that the Ford would make a lighter more compact swap. Lone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsil Posted November 29, 2000 Share Posted November 29, 2000 You know, what about if we make one? I mean, with all of the people on this site, we should be able to pool enough info to have a pretty thick book!!! I am going to post all the details of my swap (haven't got there yet, but when I start to do it, I will post it all as I go along), and include part #'s and instructions. I'm using a FEW things from the JTR manual, so this will just be an add-on for the Ford engine/tranny combo only. The exhaust after the headers, driveshaft, radiator, and other stuff will remain the same (pretty much), except starter wiring. probably good for 30-40 pages of text and pics. I won't be to that point until March, but it's something to think about. ------------------ http://refuse.netdojo.com/Zcar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted November 29, 2000 Share Posted November 29, 2000 Al, thanks for making that commitment. I think about a dozen different html pages linked together could cover it. Engine mounts, tranny mount, oil pan mods, electrical mods, Exhaust manifold/header stuff, clutch activation, tranny choices (auto and manual) with how-to's, etc. I'd love to see those pages mirrored here on HybridZ under something like the tech articles page. Now if we could get the GNZ, 280ZX and 300ZX guys to document the details of those swaps (Buick, Chevy or Ford) that's be great to have linked or mirrored here as well. I get several emails a week from traffic to my site asking about the Ford swap, the 280ZX swap, the 300ZX swap as well as the ever-popular SBC V8 Z swap. I point them to HybridZ to ask questions, but having actual web pages here to point them to would be terrific. I'd bet there are several dozen people on this site that found it after emailing me with questions on V8 Z swaps after seeing my personal site or posts on zcar.com, and the IZCC and 240Z-club lists. Not tooting my horn, but just saying that it'd be great if we had the info more accessible on this site to point these people to, instead of asking them to ask the same question over and over. I'm sure some of the others on this site get the same kind of emails. In fact if I get asked a question here or in email and I type a decent response with info the person needed, I generally add it to my site. No sense having to type it again later or try to dig up the old email I wrote months earlier. I encourage others to do the same thing. It doesn't take much effort to type it into a web page if you've put it on this board or on email. O.k. Off my soap box now . ------------------ Pete Paraska - 73 540Z - Marathon Z Project - pparaska@home.com">pparaska@home.com - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted November 29, 2000 Share Posted November 29, 2000 quote: Originally posted by alsil: You know, what about if we make one? I mean, with all of the people on this site, we should be able to pool enough info to have a pretty thick book!!! I am going to post all the details of my swap (haven't got there yet, but when I start to do it, I will post it all as I go along), and include part #'s and instructions. I'm using a FEW things from the JTR manual, so this will just be an add-on for the Ford engine/tranny combo only. The exhaust after the headers, driveshaft, radiator, and other stuff will remain the same (pretty much), except starter wiring. probably good for 30-40 pages of text and pics. I won't be to that point until March, but it's something to think about. Thats an excellent idea. If you look at the JTR book, its well done and shows it has alot of practical experience in it and pretty invaluable for the Chevy swap, but its far from a polished publication. One for the Ford would be excellent. One that gave diagrams or motor mount configurations/measurements would be super. Good idea, Lone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted November 29, 2000 Share Posted November 29, 2000 quote: Originally posted by pparaska: Al, thanks for making that commitment. I'd love to see those pages mirrored here on HybridZ under something like the tech articles page. Now if we could get the GNZ, 280ZX and 300ZX guys to document the details of those swaps (Buick, Chevy or Ford) that's be great to have linked or mirrored here as well. Thats an excellent idea as well. Many of the questions asked over and over could be answered by a series of online manuals if you will, descibing nuances of the various swaps, filling in holes of information, and perhaps give new information to the high performance Z owner. In the archives of the mail alone there has to be a ton-o-stuff that would work in those sort of online pages, not to mention the experience first hand from you guys that have completed, or nearly completed the swaps. Good Idea! Regards, Lone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsil Posted November 29, 2000 Share Posted November 29, 2000 Well, as I go along, I will update my website. I can put everything in PDF format when I'm done, and we can either have it online as a manual, (with stuff from this forum added, as well as links to some of the discussions) and put up pages on this site itself. Just a thought. But I will document when I get into uncharted waters. I don't really have a preference to Ford/Chevy (hell, I own a '66 Chevy Pickup with a 350/T350 setup) but I like the advantages the Ford has over the Chevy in this swap. there has to be an easy, clean way to do it, and some have. Then we can share this for the other people who would like to do the swap. ------------------ http://refuse.netdojo.com/Zcar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted November 30, 2000 Share Posted November 30, 2000 I think the idea of an online manual is wonderful! It certainly would help out the new folks and would benefit everyone. I have been putting together my website to help folks along mainly with the structural modifications. I guess, kind of the way I would like it documented, through pictures. When I read something on the web or from a book it is sometimes hard to visualize, no matter how detailed it is explained. I know I have read Pete's site, Terry's site ( a great site for the Ford conversion, by the way) and Mike Kelly's tech articles a 1000 times. Maybe I am too much of an idiot to pick up on things from text, still don't know how I wound up with four degrees!!! The Ford v. Chevy thing, I am a Ford person to the bone!! But I am using a SBC for my conversion. Mainly because of the cost of parts, the ease at which you can get more cubes (383) and the availability of a durable manual transmission (T56). When I first started my project I had full intentions of doing a small block Ford. Fifteen years ago my Dad had fabricated motor mounts and all of the hardware to convert my '73 240 to a small block Ford when I left it behind to go to college. The project ended up going unfinished and the hardware went with the car when it was sold. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pauli Posted November 30, 2000 Share Posted November 30, 2000 might take a new input shaft, but i'd think a t56 would work in a ford setup... i believe it'll bolt to a t5 bellhousing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted November 30, 2000 Share Posted November 30, 2000 Yeah, I didn't read the whole article, but they did mention the T5 bellhousing. Heres a website talking about the BW replacement Ford T56 trannie: http://www.drivetrain.com/fordt56inst.html Lone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted November 30, 2000 Share Posted November 30, 2000 The August 2000 edition of 5.0 Mustang describes how to put a T56 onto a 5 L Ford. The installation in a Mustang is practically a bolt-on. "Shorten the driveshaft 1.5 inches, relocate the crossmember 5 inches aft (Kenny Brown makes a kit for mustangs PN KBP 49060), lengthen a couple of wires, use a longer speedo cable, and you're there". I've seen elsewhere on the net that you need to do some tranny tunnel massage and cooling fin grinding to make the thing fit in a 240z. I've also heard not. Comments? (we are getting off track here, by the way). I'm amazed at the response here - this is my first 24 hours belonging here and you guys have been a great help. I'll ask again - does anyone know of a kit available? Does Terry Oxandale have something available? From the comments gathering here it seems no-one has jumped on this opportunity. Seems like lots of interest. The entrepreneurial portion of my cortex is starting to fire... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted November 30, 2000 Share Posted November 30, 2000 Guys, I was aware of the T56 for the Ford application, I researched quite a bit before making the decision to go to a small block Chevy. All of the articles regarding the swap are using an aftermarket T56, it is a different animal than the production T56 which I am using for my swap. One of the biggest differences is that it costs ~$2800 and is only rated at 400 ft/lbs with its 2.97 first gear. I was also aware of D&D, I believe, that converts T56s for Ford use but we are still talking $2000+ just for the transmission and bell housing. If any of you all know how to convert an OEM T56 out of a 1996 Z28 for use with a small block Ford for a reasonable amount, PLEASE let me know, I have not purchased the first engine component so it would not be too late to go the Ford route... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted November 30, 2000 Share Posted November 30, 2000 Lone, Where did oyu get the weight numbers from? That seems awfull high.. I'm not doubting it, just questioning it because honest to god I have read or been told about ten different weight ranging from 40# to 120#! I had a Ford 302 block a few years back when I was thinking of doing a 302 swap, but I never weighted it... wish I had now! Plus, lets remember there are about 48 cubes difference there, maybe a better comparison would be to find out what the little chevy 305 weighs instead... Regardless, you are correct in that the ford block is lighter, I'm just not sure how much or why! Mike Mike ------------------ "I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!" mjk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pauli Posted November 30, 2000 Share Posted November 30, 2000 i think a 351 only weighs about 50lbs more than a 302. how that compares to a 350, i have no idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted November 30, 2000 Share Posted November 30, 2000 Mike, The Ford blocks are lighter, as Lone said, because of thinner castings and due to the fact they are just simply smaller, lower deck heights, etc... The later blocks are lighter than the earlier blocks. As Pauli said the 351 is heavier and like the 302s the earlier blocks are even heavier still due to thicker castings and more "meat" around the main journals. Like you said, I have also seen various weights posted for the Fords, Chevrolets too for that matter. Someone, may have been Locutus, posted a while back a site that had the weights of various Ford components. I don't think I have ever seen what the weight was for the Datsun L6. For some reason I recall the weight for a fully dressed 302 was 480 lbs. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted November 30, 2000 Share Posted November 30, 2000 The figure I used was what I was trying to remember from this chart. If this is to believed, its closer to 115# different! This was off of I believe one of Pete's pages, although I got it by doing a search on 'Engine weights' on the net. Here is the link: http://www.team.net/sol/tech/engine.html Another source for weight for a 302 at 475 lbs is here: http://www.thecarsource.com/fords/engines/302engine.html The same source for a 351W and 351C (which both weight in at 530 lbs, 45lbs lighter than chevy): http://www.thecarsource.com/fords/engines/351engine.html This source could be useful for swappers too, it has the dimensions for the various engines: http://www.westechperformance.com/pages/dimension.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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