3" Exhaust... for NA modified engine. Muffler options?

[BlackdogNY]

I am discussing because you seem to like to mix up a street exhaust and a open race setup.  If 99.9% is made at the extractor/collector, why is there a mulit million $ business selling/claiming decent hp gains with after cat exhaust systems. You maybe correct with that % on a open header exhaust, I must disagree for anything that has a full or semi exhaust. 

This post was started by someone looking for advice on a 3" STREET Exhaust.

You may say that you would drive a STREET car with a poor sounding/functioning system, I find that hard to believe.  I just replaced a  brand new 'turbo style' muffler for someone because the drone was so bad he refused to drive the car.  The black paint had not even discolored.  Above 3000 it was ok, 2-3000 where it was mainly being driven, crazy bad.

I could not find the full article, the chart below is a  muffler test. Not sure of car.  Draw your own conclusions.

 

http://www.mustang50magazine.com/tec...est/index.html is a link to another  muffler test.

All of the mufflers are close. I don't think many people could tell the difference. That would get me to my original point about form/function/sound/simplicity and bang for you $.

 

In the chart below, the Supercrapp did pretty well.  You can have up 24 discs on a standard endcap and they only put on 12 and 18.

I originally posted on this article because of a concern I had with his rubber hangers and made a sugguestion about a exhaust SYSTEM, if he had problems and wanted to change his existing set-up.  You are the one that started by typing your opinion about my current muffler.

I am not that closed minded to think my sh&t is the better, prove me wrong. No mud here, just trying to offer a solution to a problem many members have complained about. 

If anybody from Kerker/Supertrapp is listening, can I get a discount on my next muffler??
 

B&G

 

[johnc]

If 99.9% is made at the extractor/collector, why is there a mulit million $ business selling/claiming decent hp gains with after cat exhaust systems

 

Excellent marketing.

[BlackdogNY]

So everybody with a aftermarket street exhaust should take it off and put a NOS Nissan system on(after a tuned merge collector/header).  I would love to see those dyno numbers.  A buddy of mine does Corvette tuning.  I have seen exhaust systems make HP.   Adding a good header made more, but that would be expected.

The guys at classic Z will love that, less modified Z's ruining the world.

 

B&G

[Leon]

So everybody with a aftermarket street exhaust should take it off and put a NOS Nissan system on(after a tuned merge collector/header).  I would love to see those dyno numbers.  A buddy of mine does Corvette tuning.  I have seen exhaust systems make HP.   Adding a good header made more, but that would be expected.

The guys at classic Z will love that, less modified Z's ruining the world.

 

B&G

 

Jeez man! We're talking tuning here. Just because there was HP gain doesn't mean there was any tuning involved. A better flowing exhaust can definitely make more power (to a point), nobody is debating that.

 

When we talk of tuning, it's all about pressure wave resonance and to a lesser degree, inertial effects at high rpm. It's all described in the exhaust sticky. Clearly, you either didn't read it or didn't understand it. As JohnC points out, marketing is a clever tool. Looks like Supercrapp did a pretty good job of that...

 

It is clear that inline6 is looking for proper performance along with "streetability".

 

Since the car is mainly a track toy at this point, I can take it being loud, but not so loud that I can't drive it without my ears bleeding when I am keeping my foot out of the throttle.

 

This crosses Supercrapp off the list. Enough said.

[BlackdogNY]

I guess i am stupid, so glad you are here to help me.  I read two independent tests of several mufflers and have no reason to think there is some industry conspiracy to sell exhaust systems.

I agree with your header/collector tuning.  Not quite  sure why you think that the rest is crap.  Dyno results are pretty good judge.  If there is a better way to pick a muffler I am all ears.

I was under the impression that you tune a exhaust system for HP, sound(db and quality), and drivability(drone).  If it makes power, sounds good, and you can drive it without blood loss....good job,

 

Man you really hate Supertrapp, even with good dyno numbers....I give up discussing on the interweb.  If you stop calling me stupid I will stop insulting your intelligence.

 

B&G

[johnc]

The key is in the tuning.  With OBD2 and later engine controls its very difficult to get addtional power from just "bolt-ons."  What the legit exhaust system people don't talk about is the 100s of hours of tuning they do to get the dyno numbers they use in their marketing.  Stillen is a prime example of that.  What the illegit exhaust system prople do it just make up numbers that are just a bit better then the legit guys claim.

 

Pre-OBD2 cars can respond better to a well designed and well built exhaust sysxtem.  The L6 engine in stock condition responds well to a 2.5" exhaust system without any changes to the stock exhaust manifold.

 

In general the real gains to an engine that is modified beyond stock is in the header and merge collector (if one is used).  The exhaust after that should be deisgned to stay out the way as much as packaging requirements allow.

 

 

I read two independent tests of several mufflers and have no reason to think there is some industry conspiracy to sell exhaust systems.

 

One does not follow from the other.  Its absolutely in the automotive exhaust aftermarket's best interest to have people believe that aftermerket exhausts are a good idea in general.  SEMA doesn't even pretend to police the complete frauds out there selling "Vortex Generating Muffelrs" and crap like that.  Go to the next SEMA show and see the lies.

[(goldfish)]

Link is broken.

 

 

http://www.mustang50magazine.com/tec...est/index.html is a link to another  muffler test.

All of the mufflers are close. I don't think many people could tell the difference. That would get me to my original point about form/function/sound/simplicity and bang for you $.

 

 

I am not that closed minded to think my sh&t is the better, prove me wrong. No mud here, just trying to offer a solution to a problem many members have complained about. 

If anybody from Kerker/Supertrapp is listening, can I get a discount on my next muffler??
 

B&G

 

 

So the open exhaust made the most power.  I can hang with that.  The Supertrapp with 24 discs didn't show to bad, but if I take out some so it only has 18 discs it makes less power?  Makes you question the charts.

[BlackdogNY]

John, what I read was a 20 yr old Car Craft test(chart) and the other was in 5.0 Mustang(link).  No reason to believe they are not legit.

Now saying  XYZ is crapp is a opinion that will need to be proven. I am sure  many are(loved seeing the car polish ads when they lite the hood on fire). 

Leon still seem to feel strongly that XYZ is bad, even with a decent dyno test.  Don't care, that is his issue.

 

Goldfish, sorry about the link I copied it from the story, will try to get it back.

The last part about the discs......that is how they claim to tune for power/sound/torque, more discs=more power.

 

B&G

[BlackdogNY]

From the December, 2002 issue of 5.0 Mustang & Super Fords

Read more: http://www.mustang50magazine.com/techarticles/m5lp_0212_ford_mustang_muffler_comparison_test/viewall.html#ixzz2JQ8eHCd1

 

see if this works.....

[johnc]

And the Mustang muffler comparison test:  The horsepower range was from 373hp to 365hp.  8 hp.  The difference is 2% which is well with the margin of error for the chassis dyno they used.  What that test tells me (and what they say in the text of the article) is that the muffler chosen made no difference in performance.

[yellowoctupus]

Thanks for fixing the link, that was a great article.  Roughly speaking, if I remember right 3dB is equalivent to a double in sound pressure intensity. (not horsepower loudness or whatever they called it)

 

"Better yet, all the mufflers handily outperformed an open exhaust, so you can tell that annoying guy in the neighborhood with the jacked-up Nova to put on some mufflers and he'll actually be faster."  -Great!!

 

Everybody likes pretty pictures, right? 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 30, 2013 by yellowoctupus

[BlackdogNY]

 The exhaust after that should be deisgned to stay out the way as much as packaging requirements allow.John, was there a test of a original equip. exhaust on there?? This was a modified Mustang. I think the tests prove that a aftermarket muffler/pipe can improve performance over stock.  If you add a tuned header assembly it will improve more(I would guess this car has one).  All of the after-header gains may be small and not great $/hp, but the sound quality  can offset that for many people. 

None of them lost power,  this is what you said  a exhaust system is suppose to do. "The exhaust after that should be deisgned to stay out the way as much as packaging requirements allow'.

If the whole system you buy/make, sounds like you wanted and is drivable(drone,db's), good deal. 

Like you said the difference between all the mufflers, my choice included, is within dyno error, so it would come down the the drivability and personal sound preference.  

Leon and others have their own favorites.

I hope this ends this.

 

B&G  

[johnc]

This was a modified Mustang. I think the tests prove that a aftermarket muffler/pipe can improve performance over stock.

 

Well, no we can't deduce that.  This was a modified Mustang that compared an open exhaust and a bunch of different aftermarket muflfers.  The results were that there was 2% performance difference between all the mufflers and an open exhaust.  That shows that on that particualr car the mufflers chosen stayed out of the way - and that's a good thing.  They didn't improve the performance and they didn't restrict the performance.

 

Now, if they had started with a stock Mustang with the stock exhaust and then did the test... who knows.

[yellowoctupus]

They didn't improve the performance and they didn't restrict the performance.

 

Now, if they had started with a stock Mustang with the stock exhaust and then did the test... who knows.

 

If the test had been completed on a stock engine, I agree that from a harmonics stand point there might be more interesting data to analyze, however from a backpressure view, a higher horsepower (/ higher airflow) engine would be better suited to test with. 

 

Perhaps a greater test of flow would have been to choose all of these exhausts with a smaller inlet/outlet just for a head to head muffler design test.  For example, it appears all of the tested exhausts can flow more than enough for this 375hp engine, therefore it is not unlike testing an exhaust flow through a 10" , 15" and 24" exhaust pipe.  There would be NO appreciable difference seen between any of these tests as they will all flow more than enough, just like the mufflers tested above. 

[Leon]

 The exhaust after that should be deisgned to stay out the way as much as packaging requirements allow.John, was there a test of a original equip. exhaust on there?? This was a modified Mustang. I think the tests prove that a aftermarket muffler/pipe can improve performance over stock.  If you add a tuned header assembly it will improve more(I would guess this car has one).  All of the after-header gains may be small and not great $/hp, but the sound quality  can offset that for many people. 

None of them lost power,  this is what you said  a exhaust system is suppose to do. "The exhaust after that should be deisgned to stay out the way as much as packaging requirements allow'.

If the whole system you buy/make, sounds like you wanted and is drivable(drone,db's), good deal. 

Like you said the difference between all the mufflers, my choice included, is within dyno error, so it would come down the the drivability and personal sound preference.  

Leon and others have their own favorites.

I hope this ends this.

 

B&G  

 

I've seen the link in post #69 referenced before. I quit reading as soon as he says that mufflers out-perform open pipes. Sure...

 

That alone shows that the test is flawed. Clearly, they are missing how the physics work here. I don't even see mentions of "Supertrapp" on that website. The other link does't work for me and I've seen ZERO dyno numbers showing the Trapp (appropriate name...) results thus far.

 

There may not be a big difference between the "Trapp" and others at a certain point, but what do you think happens when you have a smaller amount of plates? They just restrict the exhaust. This is not "tuning", not even close. 

 

What they're doing is killing power and then bringing it back to where it might be when compared to a better-flowing muffler.

 

You seem to carry on a disconnect between exhaust tuning and just slapping parts on. Replacing a restrictive exhaust with a cat-back system that flows better will gain power (depending on original restriction). This is not "tuning".

 

Installing a cat-back system and tuning the engine to "match" the exhaust is not "exhaust tuning". Gaining power over a stock exhaust doesn't say much at all, factory exhausts are not typically designed for max performance, there are myriad strict guidlines for them to adhere to.

 

You're really getting off track at this point. We're talking about the "Trapp" muffler to be a viable alternative for a "mainly" track car. Inline6's requirements have been posted and re-posted. I see no dyno results that support your claims and I refuse to buy a Supercrapp just to test. It's like buying one of those intake vortex generators to see if it helps, some things are just a terrible idea/marketing ploy in the first place.

 

We're not talking subjective things here, sound can be achieved in many different ways. Would I recommend inline6 a 1.5" muffler just because it sounds good? No. It doesn't fit his requirements. 

 

As an aside: I am actually curious as to how much a Trapp weighs with all plates installed, vs. say a Borla XR-1 or the like...

 

Everything is in the exhaust sticky, I recommend reading and digesting it about 15-20 times.

[johnc]

I've seen the link in post #69 referenced before. I quit reading as soon as he says that mufflers out-perform open pipes. Sure...

 

Actually, it can, depending on a lot of things.  We have no idea from their test what was exactly meant by "open pipes."  Did they have dumps pointing at the ground?  Did they have an open exhaust that pointed at the back of the rear bumper?  Did they remove a nice merge collector to create the open pipes?  Was the open pipes a single or a dual?  Did they just unbolt the whole exhaust from the headers?  Did they have exhaust cutouts in front of the muffler?  We just don't know what they did because they have chosen to not provid much information.

[Leon]

Actually, it can, depending on a lot of things.  We have no idea from their test what was exactly meant by "open pipes."  Did they have dumps pointing at the ground?  Did they have an open exhaust that pointed at the back of the rear bumper?  Did they remove a nice merge collector to create the open pipes?  Was the open pipes a single or a dual?  Did they just unbolt the whole exhaust from the headers?  Did they have exhaust cutouts in front of the muffler?  We just don't know what they did because they have chosen to not provid much information.

 

Precisely John, thanks for clarifying that.

 

A proper test for open pipe vs. muffler would be to make the open pipe's geometry as similar as possible. As John points out, very little info is provided and nothing is conclusive from this "test".

[BlackdogNY]

"Now, if they had started with a stock Mustang with the stock exhaust and then did the test... who knows"

Wow, this is getting crazy.  I stood next to a Z06, stock,100% original, low miles.  Dyno runs for a baseline. Aftercat added, holy sh&t it made more power. Where it was TUNED to make that power, I did not get that close to the computer to see. The numbers were higher.  Break out the wrenches, headers(Kook's)...better.  Thermostat change...better.   Custom computer tuning....better still.  Customer happy, car sounded great, lots of $ exchanged.

Now, did it make more power at every point in the 0-7000rpm, not sure.  I now after the computer work it was a pretty even increase.  That point would be expected, he is able to change a lot of parametors at all rpm levels.

 

Leon, since you love to point out my lack of edgamacation and reading comprehension I will again insult your intelligence.

"I don't even see mentions of "Supertrapp" on that website. The other link does't work for me and I've seen ZERO dyno numbers showing the Trapp (appropriate name...) results thus far"

The two charts that I first posted had Stupidtrapps on them.  I think it came from a Car Craft test done many yrs ago and I, with my limited skills was not able to find the original article.  I beg your forgiveness, surely you will find that test in a jiffy.

"There may not be a big difference between the "Trapp" and others at a certain point, but what do you think happens when you have a smaller amount of plates? They just restrict the exhaust. This is not "tuning", not even close"

Well it defiantly is for sound level, it makes a huge difference.  That is their claim on how to tune their mufflers.  If you see the chart, it seems to be true for db and hp.  Seat of the pants, I can't remember feeling a big change other than db's.

"Installing a cat-back system and tuning the engine to "match" the exhaust is not "exhaust tuning". Gaining power over a stock exhaust doesn't say much at all, factory exhausts are not typically designed for max performance, there are myriad strict guidlines for them to adhere to."

I never said it was, I think I said tuning to me involved a increase of hp/tq.  I never said anything about tuning a engine(computer) until 3 sentences ago. The last part of this makes no sense,  what does it say, increasing hp is not real.

"You're really getting off track at this point. We're talking about the "Trapp" muffler to be a viable alternative for a "mainly" track car. Inline6's requirements have been posted and re-posted. I see no dyno results that support your claims and I refuse to buy a Supercrapp just to test. It's like buying one of those intake vortex generators to see if it helps, some things are just a terrible idea/marketing ploy in the first place"

I saved you the trouble...I bought one.  I posted a few comments from personal experiences and part of a test(which I am sure you have found by now).  His issue was noise levels,  even if you think that Supertrapp's suck as a muffling device, I will say as a fact they are completely 100% tunable for sound levels.  Now since its construction is mainly a glasspack, if you wish, remove the endcap at the track.  Just put it back on for the ride home with however many discs your ears can handle and be done with this discussion."

"As an aside: I am actually curious as to how much a Trapp weighs with all plates installed, vs. say a Borla XR-1 or the like..."

I am working on this, but really, now you are going to bust balls over the weight.....If I can remember, a 100lb weight change will effect a 1/4 mile et by a tenth.  If this is wrong, sorry.  If it is correct, who gives a sh&t, its a street/trackday car.  There a tons of ways to lower weight for a race. A few oz. of muffler weight, skip that after breakfast doughnut.  I will say  they are not very heavy.  The discs weigh basicly nothing.

 

Damm this was a lot of typing...I should get a free muffler out of this.

B&G

[BlackdogNY]

Part # SU5-433519

 

Supertrapp 5" Disc Series, Stainless Steel, 3-1/2" Pipe Diameter and 3" Core Diameter

Length: 18.5", Weight: 7 lbs

Not sure if this is shipping weight. Mine was the smaller core/disc.= it would be slightly lighter....

 

Borla XR-1 Race Muffler

 

Part# Product Type Inlet/Outlet
Configuration Shape Tubing
Size Case Size 400371 Muffler Center/Center Oval 3" 16" x 4.25" x 7.88"

 

Shipping
Weight (in lbs) Box Size
(L x W x H) (in inches) 12 21x8x11

 

  A HUGE difference....I know ounces add up but in a streetish car...

 

I will make one final statement....when I built the exhaust mentioned in this thread, about 20 yrs ago, my main concern was a car that sounded badass. Heard said muffler on a few sportbikes and cars, liked the sound.  Read a article/test that they did a decent job,  mover forward with my life. I never was that hungup on hp levels and how to change where my torque curve a few hundred rpm.T he exhaustmay or may not hurt hp.  It was a lightly modified car that I took to the track a few times and drove for pleasure the rest of the time.  Never dyno'd.  Got tons of complements on how it sounded. Made me happy whenever I drove it. I have a new design I want to try and  I will use the same criteria when I take that same system off my 'new to me' car'.  Yes, my new Z has my old system on it(I gave it to the owner when I sold my car).

 

The OP seemed to be in a simular situation as I was.  I offered a opition that I thought would help.  End of story. 

 

B&G
 

[Leon]

You just don't get it...

 

Inline6 is not looking only for a good sound! This is a track car.

 

I guess I can stick a couple of bananas in my tailpipes and call it good, as long as it makes nice noises, is quiet, and I don't "feel" a difference? I'll repeat, I saw ZERO dyno results in anything posted. All I saw were a couple of bar charts (1/4 mile mph and sound levels) with no supporting data posted. They also showed open pipes as being the "fastest", completely going against the other article you posted.

 

BTW, no where did I insult YOU. Supertrapp is a different story...

 

There's no reason to get so defensive when somebody challenges your choices. The only conclusive evidence here would be a dyno test comparing the Trapp to other mufflers. If you're willing to do so, I'd love to see the results from a properly done experiment, whether they back up my argument or not.