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Xnke

Positively Displaced

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So I have a very well stocked junkpile to work out of, and I've been thinking about forced induction for a while.

 

I was getting bored with nothing to do in the shop, so I started pulling stuff out of the junk pile two weeks ago, and started fiddling.

 

This is the result.

 

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Hmmmm....Yes, I think this will do just fine. Pulled from a junkyard and rebuilt, it's in very good condition.

 

Let's get started, shall we?

 

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Argh...I really need to buy a bandsaw. Took from 5PM till 7:30PM to make that cut through 4.25" aluminum round stock.

 

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That'll eventually become the hub adaptor, by the way. Next up was the driving end of the belt. An aluminum "front main seal" was cut out to position the crank damper in the correct position...I don't have main caps or bearings for this spare block, so the spare crank isn't installed. Took a ton of measurments and concluded that the damper sits about right here, judging from how the pulleys all line up and the wear marks on the damper.

 

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Since I use crank-triggered ignition on the datto, I'll need to fit a trigger wheel and rework the ignition pickup, too. Trigger wheel is 7" diameter to clear the supercharger drive pulley.

 

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There, 36-1 wheel fabbed.

 

A Power Steering Pulley, for a GM 262ci V6, was pressed into service. The hub was machined out, the dish was beaten out of the middle, and the new mounting surface trued up. Pilot hole was bored, and bolt circle layed out to match the ZX damper.

 

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Next, the hub adaptor.

 

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All this...just to find out I don't have any M6x1.00mm bolts 48mm in length. Bummer.

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Started work by obtaining the proper bolts to assemble the damper, wasn't too terrible.

 

IMAG0396.jpg

 

Had planned on lunch with a friend of mine; but that didn't happen, sat around in the shop for a bit staring at a Calsonic intercooler core I got from a member here a while back...It is nearly perfectly sized to fit the nose of an S30. Being as it originally had plastic tanks, but they had been removed prior to my obtaining it, I'll have to make tanks for it. Since I have to make tanks for it, and it needs to fit very closely to the car, I'll mount the core in its final position, and then start making the tanks to fit the car.

 

Intercooler core sitting ontop of the mockup engine. (that's an L28, for scaling purposes...)

 

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These wide lower tabs actually are bolted to the horn mounts in the lower core support.

 

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The upper mounts are pretty specific; the A/C condenser core I am using has two 10mm bolts protruding from the upper mounting tabs, and the intercooler shares these 10mm bolts with the A/C condenser core. The intercooler will also be ducted from the back side of the intercooler to the condenser core, to the core support. This will help to cut down on air moving around the core, and forcing air to pass through both these heat exchangers.The rest of the firewall will be sealed up, and the top edge of the front airdam will be sealed to the lower core support as well.

 

Also started on the tensioner and idler pulleys. You can see the position of the upper idler pulley in the above photo, mounted to the front of the cylinder head. It'll need a lot of bracing, and the tensioner pulley will be placed similarly, but lower and to the left of the idler.

 

The pulleys I'm going to use:

 

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And a shot of the idler standoff: (cut from an old ZX front strut, actually...)

 

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That's all I got for tonight...got too dark to get pictures of the intercooler core mounted in the car.

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Been trying to think up a supercharged set up for my L28 for a while. Really interested in how this will play out. Are you going to use a clutched pulley so you can turn it on and off? That's what I want to do haha. Also will it be efi or carbed?

Edited by luseboy

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It'll be on all the time, the clutched thing is just silly. You won't gain any fuel milage by having the clutch on the supercharger; the parasitic drag from driving the super at low engine speeds is less than the manifold restriction caused by the rotors, bypass valve, and intercooler combined. The only things you gain from the clutched unit are:

 

1) Requiring you to run a 8"+ crank pulley to get reasonable boost levels

2) Not being able to change the supercharger pulley to change boost

3) Having to pay for the expensive clutch (Mercedes C230 Kompressor models for the M62+clutch)

4) Not being able to turn the clutch on with any kind of load on it, or it WILL slip and burn up...No Mad Max full throttle + red button engagements.

 

I don't see any gains to be had there...

 

The engine is already built, fuel injected 9.7:1 compression, moderate cam, cylinder head cooling modifications, custom intake manifold, etc. I drive this car every day as it is.

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Started working on the intercooler yesterday; spent most of the day making an end tank for the high-pressure side. It doesn't fit...forgot about the little folded sheetmetal brace in the core support surrounding the hole I wanted to go through. The sheetmetal brace will be removed with extreme prejudice.

 

Anyway, this is what you all want to see. I believe this core is from a Skyline GTS-T, it is a Calsonic core from some kind of Nissan at any rate.

 

Core mounted in the car:

 

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You can see the offending brace in the upper corner, surrounding the hole that the A/C line is also passing through. I notched the core support right there to pass the A/C line through, and still allow me room to fit the cooler.

 

Forgot to take photos of the layout, cutout, and random smashing to get the 14g sheet aluminium into this shape:

 

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Getting it welded onto the core:

 

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And once again, it's too dark to get photos of it in the car...it doesn't fit anyway, there will have to be modifications made.

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It'll be on all the time, the clutched thing is just silly. You won't gain any fuel milage by having the clutch on the supercharger; the parasitic drag from driving the super at low engine speeds is less than the manifold restriction caused by the rotors, bypass valve, and intercooler combined. The only things you gain from the clutched unit are:

 

1) Requiring you to run a 8"+ crank pulley to get reasonable boost levels

2) Not being able to change the supercharger pulley to change boost

3) Having to pay for the expensive clutch (Mercedes C230 Kompressor models for the M62+clutch)

4) Not being able to turn the clutch on with any kind of load on it, or it WILL slip and burn up...No Mad Max full throttle + red button engagements.

 

I don't see any gains to be had there...

 

The engine is already built, fuel injected 9.7:1 compression, moderate cam, cylinder head cooling modifications, custom intake manifold, etc. I drive this car every day as it is.

 

Hadn't really thought about that but you pose a good argument. I was considering making/having made a two-row crank pulley, the most outside of which being clutched, but I would imagine that would be very expensive and hard to set up. Haha I grew up on mad max, basically why I wanted to be able to turn it on and off, still considering doing side exit pipes like the mad max car too :P. I think you've given me some more food for thought, I plan to stay carbed (4bbl), and was trying to understand how I could tune it to work well both with the blower on and off. Obviously, with the blower off it would have to run really rich so I'd probably not get any better gas mileage, just worse drivability and a gunked up engine. That said, please oh please post videos and more pictures and stuff. I will hopefully be following in your footsteps with this, except in the carbed variety. One question though, I've read that long tubing from the air inlet to the manifold will make for laggy acceleration, especially in cases of intercooled turbos. Is this a concern or is it one of those stupid things people say without doing the math? Seems to me it shouldn't be of concern since there's gonna be air in those pipes no matter what... I guess it might make it take a bit longer for the pressurized air to reach the cylinders? Anyways my current car (while I'm building my Z) is a supercharged mini cooper s, and I've fallen in love with that WWWAAAAAHHHHHHHH when I press the go pedal, so i'd love to have that in my Z too. The added power would be kinda cool too i guess :blink:

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"One question though, I've read that long tubing from the air inlet to the manifold will make for laggy acceleration, especially in cases of intercooled turbos."

That comes from wanker theoriticians who live on the internet while logged on from their parent's basement eating cheetos and slurping Tab with posters of Star Wars on the walls behind them...

When you do the math, ESPECIALLY with the non-linear delivery from Centrifugal Superchargers the 'lag' you get is imperceptible to the human arse, much less anything else. With a proper compressor bypass valve, it can be argued longer piping helps keep the compressor spooled longer and faster in between shifts, but I don't want to start anybody choking on their cheetos and spitting Tab all over th3eir keyboard but suffice to say the internet myth of 'long piping' is just that: a myth.

Talk to the guys with the rear-mount STS units and discuss lag, see what THEY have to tell you about THEIR experiences!

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"One question though, I've read that long tubing from the air inlet to the manifold will make for laggy acceleration, especially in cases of intercooled turbos."

That comes from wanker theoriticians who live on the internet while logged on from their parent's basement eating cheetos and slurping Tab with posters of Star Wars on the walls behind them...

When you do the math, ESPECIALLY with the non-linear delivery from Centrifugal Superchargers the 'lag' you get is imperceptible to the human arse, much less anything else. With a proper compressor bypass valve, it can be argued longer piping helps keep the compressor spooled longer and faster in between shifts, but I don't want to start anybody choking on their cheetos and spitting Tab all over th3eir keyboard but suffice to say the internet myth of 'long piping' is just that: a myth.

Talk to the guys with the rear-mount STS units and discuss lag, see what THEY have to tell you about THEIR experiences!

 

Hahahaha I wish we had a clapping icon, that was awesome. I swear the people on this forum are so much more knowledgeable than any other forum. In a lot of ways, the interwebs seems to be making people far less intelligent about cars... things like exhaust backpressure, engines making most power cold, and this kind of thing seem to thrive on forums, and this is the only one i've seen where anyone does any math or tries anything for themselves. Really happy to be part of such a great forum. By rear mounted sts units, are you speaking of something along the lines of the guy with the corvette who ran two blowers, one off of each rear axle? And if so, has anyone done that to a Z car yet? pros/cons of that set up? In my daydreams of charging my car, I envisioned putting the supercharger on the passenger side of the engine, putting the air filter in the cowl on that side, and running the tubing through an intercooler of some sort and into the carb hat. Seems like it would simplify the system a bit and keep the supercharger/inlet air away from the exhaust heat a little better. Only problem is mounting the blower would be a little more difficult, but that could be figured out.

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Yes, Bernardd, that is exactly the plan. I will be mounting the same supercharger in the same location as 280ZedX, although I can never find where he actually finished that build. I see photos of the car assembled, but never anything else.

 

Did some more work on the intercooler tonight, working on the driver's side tank. Lost my nerves though, hands started shaking and I had to stop.

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Fixed the problem I had with the core support interfering with the intercooler, it's no longer an issue. The boxed in section was...well, boxed in, and the intercooler fits now. Here's the current state of things:

 

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Starting the passenger side now:

 

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" In a lot of ways, the interwebs seems to be making people far less intelligent about cars..."

Don't......

get....

 

 

 

me......

STARTED!icon55.gif

 

STS: Squires Turbo Systems something like www.ststurbo.com or the like... Search and ye shall find. What was that you said above?cool.gif

Edited by Tony D

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" In a lot of ways, the interwebs seems to be making people far less intelligent about cars..."

Don't......

get....

 

 

 

me......

STARTED!icon55.gif

 

STS: Squires Turbo Systems something like www.ststurbo.com or the like... Search and ye shall find. What was that you said above?cool.gif

 

Haha that was a ninja post on my way to school, but looks like i was on the right line but got the induction system mixed up... Has anyone on here seen a Z with a rear-mounted supercharger or turbo system? Seems like there isn't really enough room for a supercharger system but a turbo system is possible with the use of a fuel cell under the rear hatch. I know I've seen a v8 Z with an alternator run off the driveshaft, seems like you could do a similar system with a supercharger, no?

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Haha that was a ninja post on my way to school, but looks like i was on the right line but got the induction system mixed up... Has anyone on here seen a Z with a rear-mounted supercharger or turbo system? Seems like there isn't really enough room for a supercharger system but a turbo system is possible with the use of a fuel cell under the rear hatch. I know I've seen a v8 Z with an alternator run off the driveshaft, seems like you could do a similar system with a supercharger, no?

Why drive a supercharger from the driveshaft, when it can be driven off of the crank? There are losses between crank and driveshaft which means there is less power available to drive the SC. Similar issues exist with remote mounted turbos, there is less heat and pressure available to spin the turbine than there would be if it were mounted right next to the engine. Sure, it'll work, but other than to be "cool" and "different" I don't see a reason to do so.

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Why drive a supercharger from the driveshaft, when it can be driven off of the crank? There are losses between crank and driveshaft which means there is less power available to drive the SC. Similar issues exist with remote mounted turbos, there is less heat and pressure available to spin the turbine than there would be if it were mounted right next to the engine. Sure, it'll work, but other than to be "cool" and "different" I don't see a reason to do so.

 

Haha i was merely wondering from a cool factor standpoint. I would be mounting mine in the engine bay :)

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Let's try to keep this thread focused on the right side engine bay mount, instead of cluttering it up with other mount locations or turbo/twincharging. I will be updating this thread with the progress, until it becomes difficult to follow.

 

That said, I gave been in contact with several cam grinders, unfortunately only one has been very helpful. have tried several times to get in touch with Ron at Isky after the initial request for a supercharger specific recommendation, with no response as of yet. Dave at Crower Cams and I had a longish chat on the datsun valvetrain and cam development, trying to work out what lobe profiles we can fit on the stick and keep the wipe pattern in place. I will be sending in a cam core for him to measure and a few followers to work with, along with some photos and drawings of the valvetrain.

 

I have an N42 head on the car now, with dished pistons installed. I will be prepping a P90 head for use at a later date, but that will come later this winter.

 

More photos this evening, progress on the intercooler has been good.

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Been working on the tensioner assembly tonight. Had to put a LOT of thought into this one! Waiting on welds to cool off before I start making the rest of the bracketry.

 

EDIT: The photos finally got hosted!

 

This is the hard way to make this panel...but it worked fine.

 

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One more panel like that and the intercooler is complete and ready to fit into the car.

 

Started on the tensioner assembly. I took apart a stock A/C tensioner to see how it worked, then built a larger, stronger copy. The proper belt tension for a six rib belt is 180lbs working tension, and for a new belt, 210lbs for a few minutes of running, before retensioning to 180lbs. This means that the idler pulley needs to hold 210lbs PLUS 40HP of drive power from the crank!

 

Here's the sliding post assembly:

 

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The sliding post assembly is cut from 1045 carbon steel, then quenched and tempered to approximately the same specification as a grade 8 fastener.

 

Tensioner bracket bolted to the engine

 

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And all the pulleys in place:

 

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Hoping to have enough of the work done to get a tentative belt size (it's looking like a 51" belt will be the right length) this weekend.

Edited by Xnke

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