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Mikelly

Looking for a few good candidates (And their money)

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""There is an excellent laypersons explanation of what doesnt work with rear difusers in Junes GRM. An "expert" wrote that article, .....Good luck with your software tests and finding a solidworks 240z model. Burton Brown has been looking for one for a while.""

 

""Now, since we keep getting asked "But why"""

 

When I stop asking "but why" I stop learning.

 

 ""Maybe it has to do with the simple facts that the 40 year old Datsun Chassis is, well OLD, and designed 40 years ago.  Look at the fender openings and where the suspension uprights sit.  Where is the fuel tank located?  Notice how FAR BACK it sits behind the rear axle?  Look at how uneven the floor pans are.  What cars have you owned that have excellent aerodynamics?  I've got first hand experience with the most recent Corvette platforms, and both employed cab forward designs parking the wheels into the corners and minimalizing overhang.  Both employ saddletanks that rest in front of the rear wheels.  Both utilize complex shapes to help aid not only suspension and subftrame design but the designs of the fenderwells/liners to assist in clean aero, ALL before considing the tunnel for the driveline or the floor pans, which are, you guessed it, FLAT.""

 

""Now lets move on to the Porsche.  One of the most sopisticated platforms made.  I've torn appart TWO of the most current 911s of the last decade, the Twin Turbo and the GT3.  Having owned both, I was intimate with their design.  Having converted the Twin Turbo to FULL FACTORY FUNCTIONING GT2 AERO, I can tell you with a great deal of confidence that they too exercised much of the same elements used in the C5/6 Corvette in designing the chassis for the task, only taking greater steps to incorporate those designs.  Aero channels starting just behind the nose and incorporated in the front closeout panel, air guides and diverters, vents and scoops built into the fender liners and other undercar panels... Google Mikelly and 996TT and you'll find the work done, and much like my Zcar pics, PLENTY of documentation. ""

 

http://www.renntrack...ghlight=Mikelly

 

""THOSE MANUFACTURERS DESIGNED THE CARS TO FUNCTION with ACTIVE AERO.  Datsun didn't in 1969.  That porsche Turbo was the car the windtunnel engineer pointed to as reference to what would be required to get  a Zcar to function like, well a POrsche.  His comments were something like this "Better off spending your money on one of those.  It'll save you the time of trying to recreate it.""

 

thank you Mike Kelly

 

FINALLY SOME REAL INFORMATION. Instead of insults and name calling, how refreshing. I knew if I was persistent I would get somewhere.

 

 

""You guys want to create something that was unintended, and you can't just accept that "MAYBE" something won't work on the vaulted S30 chassis.  I love the Z.  It's why I still have it and all those other cars are long gone.  But I am a realist.  I know its limitations are somewhere below the basic platform of any host of other platforms.""

 

I will accept it as soon as I have access to the facts so I can analyze them. I want to see for myself, that's the way I learn. I apologize if that is different from somebody else, or if you thought I was trying to be insulting.

 

 

""Now, onto your jab at Matt Isbell for his video. ""

 

I'm sorry if you misunderstood me. I never took a jab at his video. Go back and re-read please, all I said was that it is easy to get an idea of what kind of person he is because he has posted a video of his racing. I actually think it's a well done video of an exciting lifestyle. 

 

""And since you don't understand any of that, I guess it comes as zero surprise why the hell the issues around aero and flatbottoms on Datsuns is a HIGHLY unlikely successful venture.""

 

I raced enduro go-karts as a privateer for 5 years back in the '80's and was friends with guys who were partially sponsored, I have somewhat of an idea how difficult it can be.

 

 

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1941335_10152353651010775_1803807200_o.j

 

 

 

 Let me assure you that an engineer or aerodynamicist has never in the history of time just attached some plywood to the underside of a modern race car to see the data in a wind tunnel, when they use cad programs to design every piece on the car and simulate the aero in a virtual tunnel before they fabricate exactly the under-tray that is ultimately the best treatment for the car given the data supplied prior to ever even fabricating the first piece on the car.

 

 

Saw this picture, so I thought I'd ask you. Matt, do you know where to source this PLYWOOD GRAINED carbon fiber? Was hoping to get some to make the splitter for my car.

Edited by JMortensen

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I'm 50, and I reiterate the question I posted earlier: Is there any plans of testing the original Nissan G-Nose undertray? Burton Brown and I have been conspiring to try and get one out of Japan this entire  past year. Given the 280ZX aero testing, this tray was part of the G-Nose Package that decreased the original S30 Cd down to the 0.38 range. 

It's a fitted FRP Piece, which has been faithfully reproduced from an original G-Nose Piece and is sold for around $400 in-country. One trip to Japan back to LA with Business Class Luggage Allowance would get several back in-country for replication and testing.

 

I'm always up for assisting furtherance of knowledge, and would love to supply the part (or donate $$$ again) to see what it does. Actually, having a working aerodynamicist at the site may be of assistance, can I get a partner to split that stated fee? I don't know if it would be better than the tunnel operators comments--but in understanding what the air was actually doing (as Matt wants to understand) it may prove very valuable. It just depends on who is that curious. Who else spend $184 on "Turbocharging the Internal Combustion Engine" back in 1984? LOL

 

As for 'flat bottom' there is a class in LSR that could use it---if it were beneficial. We used one, it may have helped...hard to say as it's combined with front-end blockoffs to make 'the class'.... Doing it on it's own, and then piece by piece adding the parts up front may indeed reveal that it was the combination of blocking air inlets up front that gave the speed increase, rather than a smooth bottom.

 

The concentration for me and Burton is to quantify the advantage of using that G-Nose part (undertray to mid-transmission) as it would be allowed in GT and PRO classes as a stock piece. NOBODY to my knowledge has EVER used one here in the USA. It was in the parts books of the day, but never made it over into the motorsports catalogs as it appears people were more interested  in the 'cosmetics' than in the function of the total package that was the G-Nose (as proved out by testing in the first series of tests with the One-Piece G-Nose!

 

Old White Guys arguing over 160+ mph Z-Cars. Somewhere, on some Honda Forum....we are  excoriated as being the Devil because of how fast we actually go, and how we argue over actual applications, and not theoretical flights of fancy...

 

All this being said, Andy Flagg is selling the Bonneville G-Nosed Z. There's a rolling adjustable height car for you, albiet on the wrong coast. With the departure of that vehicle from the immediate stable, concentration will be on the S130's I have stashed for LSR...which start at 0.38 Cd...about where ultimate development by Nissan stopped with the S30.  After that, like Matt stated, "How the air is moving over the car" starts becoming your focus for incremental gains which are not allowed in the LSR classes but are on Road Racers.

 

As always, let me know what I can do to assist or where to send the $$$ if necessary. 

Edited by Tony D

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Well ^^^^ that is not Matt's car, Matt didn't make the splitter for that car, glad to know some folks still can't let sleeping dogs lie. 

 

Tony, I would love to know more about these s130 lsr cars.  Was the s130 gnose a factory developed part?  Those of us who were born in the "Nissan years" after '83 who only know the aritaspeed gnose (and some state side version of it) and are inquiring on its benefits before we go coo coo trying to find one!  I do have the original Kaminari air dam (that came with the car) which is nice because it has lots of big holes that can be easily ducted/blanked.  But I really am trying to understand how the air gets around that protruding bumper and over that huge hood.

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I don't think the Arita Speed S130 G-Nose is anything more than cosmetics appealing to nostalgia.

 

The original testing here revealed the G-Nose to "not be all that" but it was based on a replica. The MSA Typ3 was found more beneficial as I recall (after modifications that made the radiator ducting similar to a real Nissan G-Nose.)

 

It was at that point I grew curious.... Since making small cardboard extensions to the trays directing airflow made such an efficiency difference on the MSA, what would the similar differences be for the aftermarket G-Nose (compared to a properly replicated or original unit), and consequently with the blunt-nose under tray which Nissan cited as critical in their Aero Testing of the S30 in development of the S130.

 

The only S130 Aero Mods I know of from Nissan is the front Air Dam from JDM/Euro Turbo models, which was combined with a very trick plastic duct that sealed the inlet to the radiator directly...much like the ducting used on earlier S30's to prevent leakage around the radiator (and would accomplish that dual purpose mentioned earlier of preventing air under the hood from an unsealed hood to front upper radiator support--all air in the front of the car is channeled through the radiator.)

 

From that duct, it looks that they tried to make it a semi-bottom-breather taking anything below the bumper either through the radiator or around the front...and anything above the bumper over the top (which seems to be validated by the downforce attained from installation of the G-Nose to the S30)

 

Recall I'm saying a class exists that would allow it. And we did try it. But there is no way to quantify wether plugging up the front of the car is what gave our increased top speed...or the belly pan. I would tend to think Matts comment that it may well not have contributed could be warranted. We plugged the front end up, and in that same configuration but without the belly pan...speeds were similar if not higher.

 

This is why the curiosity exists on the S30 G-Nose and Undercover. It is a legal production part, so if placing it on the car foes affect Cd, it may be more productive to run it only, as opposed to the "grailistic, mythical flat-bottomed magic silver bullet"

 

I only wish I'd been successful in obtaining one this year to be able to make it available for testing.

 

Since the S30 is being sold...and I have S130's with better aero out of the box compared to S30 terminal development...we likely will press forward on them with S30 stuff remaining an idle curiosity channel which I will gladly help fund to satiate said idle curiosity.

Edited by Tony D

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Just to confirm, the gnose we tested in the tunnel was a repro, the lower valence was not sealed back to the radiator support, it didn't have a air dam or spoiler, and had no headlight covers.

 

Not a full test of the gnose, but it was all we had at the time.

 

jt

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Fully Understand... The documentation made that clear from the start as well.

We're all hamstringed by lack of personal Transport Pods to zap parts transcontinentally (or Trans-Hemispherically in my case!)

 

So, we do with what we have. From the MSA Type3 results, it becomes clear the reproduction G-Noses are more "cosmetics" than the Originals Nissan made. Good luck finding a complete one to test...

 

Highpoints of that test was MSA altered their air dam based on the testing completed. Bravo!

If only the One-Piece G-Nose replicators would follow suit for better effect to the Z-Community.

 

I'm not complaining by a LONGSHOT---the data gleaned only whetted my appetite to be sure!

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As a fan - and owner - of Nissan's 'HS30-H' model Fairlady 240ZG, I'm always surprised that seemingly so few people appear to understand what it was, and what it was actually for...

 

The 240ZG - as sold to the general public - was purely an homologation model. It was built and sold to the general public purely as a means to legitimise and legalise certain aerodynamics-related parts that Nissan wanted to use in FIA and JAF Group 4 (and 5) racing classes. Having built and sold a certain number (or - as Ferrari often did - claiming that they would build a certain number of them) the FIA and JAF allowed those parts to be used on race cars in the relevant classes.

 

The parts fitted to the road cars were just a base that was intended to be built upon. Nissan certainly never intended the 'Grande Nose' to be used on its own. It was designed to be used in racing with a splitter/spoiler, and with an undertray/belly pan and full ducting for the radiator opening, radiator support panel and front brakes. None of these parts were practical for use on a standard road car, and were not necessary for the homologation anyway, so they were never fitted to the road cars. 

 

Nissan's works race team developed and updated this aero package during the 1971~73 period, and many of the parts used on the works race cars were made available to the privateer racer in Japan through Nissan's own 'Sports/Race Option' parts lists.

 

Not only are most of the so-called 'replica' G-noses that have been sold over the years nothing like the genuine article, but they are not even being used as Nissan intended - as a base on which to build a more complete and effective package. I brought this point up on the previous wind tunnel testing thread, but it still gets overlooked.    

 

 

 

This is why the curiosity exists on the S30 G-Nose and Undercover. It is a legal production part, so if placing it on the car foes affect Cd, it may be more productive to run it only, as opposed to the "grailistic, mythical flat-bottomed magic silver bullet"

I only wish I'd been successful in obtaining one this year to be able to make it available for testing.

 

 

Tony,

Here's the factory 'Under Cover' for my 432-R replica project car, a part that existed from 1969. It can be bolted onto the G-Nose's lower panel as it shares the same mounting points:

 

2b0daf.jpg

 

f8d03e.jpg

Edited by HS30-H

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Highpoints of that test was MSA altered their air dam based on the testing completed.

 

I didn't know that.  What did they change?

 

 

 

I'm not complaining by a LONGSHOT---the data gleaned only whetted my appetite to be sure!

 

Oh yeah, I'd love to go back if we ever work it out.  If you've got a bit of garage engineer/tinkerer in you, it's like crack.

 

jt

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Yes Alan, was that piece sourced from Car Shop Jalopy? It looks very similar to what he had on the Red G-Nosed car when I visited his shop two years or more ago now...

Since seeing the quality of the parts (and only having seen catalog representations in the past!) made me "WANT".... Supposedly a sin...

 

post-380-0-35811800-1407731011_thumb.jpg

 

post-380-0-33900700-1407731062_thumb.jpg

 

post-380-0-16351400-1407731123_thumb.jpg

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The frame grabs are really priceless ammunition for those claiming S30 development occurred in a vacuum, without any wind tunnel testing... Those scale models say clearly otherwise...in fact making an argument for rather advanced development!

 

The argument "they did it all" may come into some aspects of the discussion, but "quantified and easily available results for everybody" is the counterpoint...

 

And as always, that would be my major secondary goal after personal curiosity satiation... LOL

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Yes Alan, was that piece sourced from Car Shop Jalopy? It looks very similar to what he had on the Red G-Nosed car when I visited his shop two years or more ago now...

 

 

Put it this way, it was made by the same people who made the ones that Nishi san at Revive Jalopy used to stock...  ;)

 

Legend has it that these under guards used to make engines overheat whilst running at lower road speeds and in stop-start-stop traffic, and many owners in period removed them (cars in question would be 432-Rs). We shall see how I get on, but perhaps my oversized radiator and the generally cooler weather here will help me with that.

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Something about your sunny climate leads me to think you won't have a problem! And there's always the possibility of Emigrating to Scotland... LOL

 

I need to get back and pay a visit... Always good information gleaned whilst there!

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