JMortensen Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 Spring rate is less important for transferring load to the chassis as compared to shock valving. If you need proof, find a car with shocks like a pickup, take the shocks out, and bounce it. It doesn't take a lot of force to set up an oscillation. Then put the shocks in and jump in the bed. Shocks transfer the load, not springs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morbias Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 Wow, that is some of the worst welding I've ever seen. It looks like the top of it was merely tacked in (and particularly badly), no wonder it separated and tore the tower apart. I would sue the crap out of the shop that did that, I would say the rate of the shocks and springs is irrelevant because it's obvious the welding failed due to the workmanship being poor quality and downright dangerous. Even if the original suspension was on the car that weld would almost certainly have failed in the same way eventually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 Actually, shocks control the rate of load transfer. In this case its applicable because a high rate of load transfer can cause an abrupt failure. But, the total load will still be the same regardles of the shocks used and that fabrication job was desinted to fail. Luckily for the owner it failed sooner then later. Imagine a track day and a long, fast corner with a bump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 Regarding the lawsuit.. the most you can probably get is repairs to the vehcile or a totaled vehcile if the shop has completed operations insurance. Since no injuries occured there is not much in the way of damages that can be collected. If the shop has no insurance, well... you can't squeeze blood out of a turnip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 Actually, shocks control the rate of load transfer. In this case its applicable because a high rate of load transfer can cause an abrupt failure. But, the total load will still be the same regardles of the shocks used and that fabrication job was desinted to fail. Luckily for the owner it failed sooner then later. Imagine a track day and a long, fast corner with a bump. That's what I was trying (badly) to get across. The shocks are more important than the springs in determining the rate of load transfer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RebekahsZ Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 All a lawsuit would do is put some money in a lawyer's pocket and waste a bunch of good people's time. Get over it - your car is a modified, clapped-out, 40 year old car just like mine is. Go buy another one and get back to having fun. You attitude regarding considering a lawsuit reminds me of a 85 year old son who blames the doctor when his 105 year old mother dies after hip surgery. Life ain't "fair." Just ask our president. Maybe he'll give you a new car to go with a free phone and a job making $30,000 for putting Pepsi in a cup 3 hours a day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seattlejester Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 I defer to you both, since your experience in the matter is much greater. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xero_xero Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 This would have never left my shop. the welds look a bit slopy. the sheet metal work looks horendous. the lack of penetration and bracing reinforces the lack of knowledge and capability on the fabricators part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WizardBlack Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Note that the OP has lawyers in the family, so... I have no doubt that the OP directed the shop to make the non-standard modifications to the car that are not "certified crash testing compliant" by the manufacturer. All in all, a family lawyer will know how to get a buy off at least. Likewise they won't list the name of the shop as part of the 'proceedings', so no point in asking. OP, a certain level of understanding of cars is necessary when you go messing with a fourty year old car and having it heavily modified and then YOU and not the shop in question drives it on public streets in an aggressive manner. Take a bit of responsibility for your own track toy and make sure you know what is done to your car and have the knowledge to confirm that it is safely executed. <Edited out more blunt factual statements> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z-ya Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 240SX Suspension in an S30? My question is: WHY? All that hacking, cutting, welding, and in the end you have car you should not even drive on the street, never mind take on a track. If you want a track car, strip that shell you have and throw it away. Get a clean unmolested shell and upgrade the stock suspension. There all sorts of suspension goodies available for the stock S30 chassis. You CAN make an S30 chassis handle, and you can do it all with bolt on parts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New-to-240z Posted February 6, 2014 Author Share Posted February 6, 2014 (edited) The people on this site, at least all the people I am familiar who have S13 coilovers have camber tops that are welded either to the underside or on top of the existing location (with the inside slightly removed) with the pillow ball mount. Or have pillow ball camber plates that are bolt in, but still to the factory strut top. For your install, it looks like they cut out the top of the datsun tower and lowered the whole mounting point by a few inches (the strut tower is tapered, so they lowered it to gain the extra width for the wider bolt pattern as well as maybe make room for the adjustment knob, and then made a new piece of metal to install the factory s13 coilover top (3 wide bolt pattern). As Jmortenson and johnc have pointed out, they cut out the reinforced top (if you look at the stock tower, it is at the minimum double layered in that area), and then proceeded to weld fairly poorly (porous looking welds) the pieces together. Here are the main points. 1. Really glad nothing catastrophic happened. Glad it was found while you were putting around instead of on the free way or somewhere else. 2. Those are really bad looking welds. Either flux, or non shielded mig with some evidence of grinding and maybe seam sealer involved. The fact they thought it was ok to do is a bit scary, I agree either shoddy or careless workmanship. 3. Yes by having the modification fail there was indeed a risk to yourself. And yes, the right thing to do would be to have them pay for a suitable repair, as long as you paid full market value (as in you did not get a discount or a hookup etc etc). However...other members are raising some good counter points. 1. If you track the car, you are pushing it quite hard. Even factory parts break when you push it, let alone aftermarket parts shoddily grafted onto non factory locations. Where have you tracked the car, any off track excursions? 2. What is the ride height that you run the car at, or the spring rate. A picture would really help us out. If you ride the car low and have stiff springs with the dampeners turned up, then they could also say that you used them not as intended. An easy counter argument would be, what spring rate are you running. 10k? That is nearly 10 times more then stock, of course it would break! 3. I know it is hard to swallow, but it is a custom install. It really isn't the traditional way that modification is done. Thus, they also have the defense that you were a pioneer/test bed and had taken responsibility for the possible failure. Now if you gave them instructions to do it one way, and they did it their own way without permission, there is something there. 4. Possibly the most important, it doesn't look like their weld failed, it is the factory sheet metal that tore out. Their design was bad and may have caused that to happen, but that would take an engineer to prove, their weld that holds the coilover to the strut is intact. Without a prior picture or a during install picture where it shows they cut into the origin of the crack, they can argue that the piece that they worked on is problem free and that the chassis given it's age is the culprit. 5. If you had problems with the workmanship, you shouldn't have been pushing the car at track days etc. I agree that you should see if you can find the other individuals and see if the shop did indeed do the same modification in the same manner to their cars. It would be evidence for you, and a very needed warning for them. I am just playing devil's advocate here. If you do plan to litigate, I would rather you do so and get this resolved rather then having them raise any of the counter points and having your case dismissed right away. It is your burden to prove that they were negligent without a doubt and caused unreasonable risk to limb and life. All they have to provide is a waiver, the lack of a receipt (if you got a discount or paid in cash), or any of another million things since nothing actually happened to you physically. Hey SeattleJ. I GREATLY appreciate all the information, and will take everything into consideration when filing for cost recoup. @Everyone : have made the decision to not have them repair the issues (as there have been multiple other issues that they say they have fixed, only to find they never even touched the car), but instead have Vildini Motorsports handle the repairs. I have seen Vildini's work before and FULLY TRUST their fabrication work. Edited February 6, 2014 by New-to-240z Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New-to-240z Posted February 6, 2014 Author Share Posted February 6, 2014 @ SeattleJ... 1. If you track the car, you are pushing it quite hard. Even factory parts break when you push it, let alone aftermarket parts shoddily grafted onto non factory locations. Where have you tracked the car, any off track excursions? - Car has not been tracked once yet. The car was going to goto the track after the 'test' run which caused the failure. So, this supports my feelings more, as almost NO stress has been put on the car. (I drive it once or twice every month, and only normal city driving) 2. What is the ride height that you run the car at, or the spring rate. A picture would really help us out. If you ride the car low and have stiff springs with the dampeners turned up, then they could also say that you used them not as intended. An easy counter argument would be, what spring rate are you running. 10k? That is nearly 10 times more then stock, of course it would break! - The ride height is actually not that bad. I lowered the car about 1 inch from the Tokico shocks. - The spring rate is the standard 240SX weight, which is pretty stiff for our cars, but I have seen others that have done this and not had any problems (even with tracking the Z) 3. I know it is hard to swallow, but it is a custom install. It really isn't the traditional way that modification is done. Thus, they also have the defense that you were a pioneer/test bed and had taken responsibility for the possible failure. Now if you gave them instructions to do it one way, and they did it their own way without permission, there is something there. - I spoke with my lawyer on this and another shop and they feel that the amount of issues I've had (constant issues since the work was done, with multiple visits to the shop and time inbetween to test), I shouldn't have any problem getting a full refund or out of courst settlement (which I will not accept anything less then 80% of costs). 4. Possibly the most important, it doesn't look like their weld failed, it is the factory sheet metal that tore out. Their design was bad and may have caused that to happen, but that would take an engineer to prove, their weld that holds the coilover to the strut is intact. Without a prior picture or a during install picture where it shows they cut into the origin of the crack, they can argue that the piece that they worked on is problem free and that the chassis given it's age is the culprit. - This is true, and I expected this would probably happen. I will handle this if it does arise, when the time comes. 5. If you had problems with the workmanship, you shouldn't have been pushing the car at track days etc. - Again, this car has never seen a track. Let alone any speeds over 80 mph (since I never felt safe in the car after the work they performed.), so that has never been an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New-to-240z Posted February 6, 2014 Author Share Posted February 6, 2014 Regarding the lawsuit.. the most you can probably get is repairs to the vehcile or a totaled vehcile if the shop has completed operations insurance. Since no injuries occured there is not much in the way of damages that can be collected. If the shop has no insurance, well... you can't squeeze blood out of a turnip. This shop is HUGE and does their own drift competition cars (as well as porsches, ferraris, etc) So, I'm guessing they have insurance. I'm not sueing for damages, I'm sueing for faulty work and constant repairs that never seem to actually repair the work done. This is simply going to be a "I paid for this, you gave me that. So, I'm going to have another reputable shop do it right, and you will be billed for the work done". From my understanding this shouldn't be a big deal for the company as this can be a write-off for them. Plus, I'm lucky enough to have family Lawyers, so this won't cost me anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New-to-240z Posted February 6, 2014 Author Share Posted February 6, 2014 All a lawsuit would do is put some money in a lawyer's pocket and waste a bunch of good people's time. Get over it - your car is a modified, clapped-out, 40 year old car just like mine is. Go buy another one and get back to having fun. You attitude regarding considering a lawsuit reminds me of a 85 year old son who blames the doctor when his 105 year old mother dies after hip surgery. Life ain't "fair." Just ask our president. Maybe he'll give you a new car to go with a free phone and a job making $30,000 for putting Pepsi in a cup 3 hours a day. - Again, my family owns its own law firm (Claims Attorney), so I'm not incurring any costs. If all I do is cost them a load of $$ and nothing gets done, then so be it. I feel I am completely in the right on this, and will follow it through to the end. I paid to have modifications done to my car that have shown to be poorly done and have put their entire job in the "Questionable quality". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New-to-240z Posted February 6, 2014 Author Share Posted February 6, 2014 This would have never left my shop. the welds look a bit slopy. the sheet metal work looks horendous. the lack of penetration and bracing reinforces the lack of knowledge and capability on the fabricators part. Thank you Xero Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New-to-240z Posted February 6, 2014 Author Share Posted February 6, 2014 Note that the OP has lawyers in the family, so... I have no doubt that the OP directed the shop to make the non-standard modifications to the car that are not "certified crash testing compliant" by the manufacturer. All in all, a family lawyer will know how to get a buy off at least. Likewise they won't list the name of the shop as part of the 'proceedings', so no point in asking. OP, a certain level of understanding of cars is necessary when you go messing with a fourty year old car and having it heavily modified and then YOU and not the shop in question drives it on public streets in an aggressive manner. Take a bit of responsibility for your own track toy and make sure you know what is done to your car and have the knowledge to confirm that it is safely executed. <Edited out more blunt factual statements> I can put together bolt ons, standard engione work, etc. But welding and structural integrity is what I pay someone to do for me. I PAY someone to do this work RIGHT and SAFE, and I expect the work be done to a standard. I wish I would have known someone who does weld, to take with me when I first inspected the car. @Everyone : I really do appreciate your assistance and opinions on everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewZed Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 This shop is HUGE and does their own drift competition cars (as well as porsches, ferraris, etc) Still can't get over the pictures of the work and the statements about $100,000 cars, etc. The two do not fit together at all. Why did you edit out the name of the company? I looked at their site and they don't advertise fabrication work, they just sell parts. Are you sure that some sales guy didn't talk you in to work on the side. Still just an odd story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seattlejester Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 (edited) Best of luck, glad you aren't taking it too personally and crying bloody murder or anything. I genuinely like the fact you are trying to tackle this straight on. NewZed: If you look around, there are a few of those situations happening (high dollar builds/shops, poor build quality/workmanship), I think jalopnik did a top 10 at one point, but let's not clutter the thread . Edited February 6, 2014 by seattlejester Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewZed Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 (edited) Clutter? That's the point of the thread, and a forum, in general. Share the knowledge so others don't make the same mistakes. Edited February 6, 2014 by NewZed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seattlejester Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Well, I guess it would be informative and directly applicable to the situation. The process will be long if the shop decides to fight. Supposedly an 18k build, I want to say the shop did eventually make right on some things. http://jalopnik.com/owner-says-18k-engine-build-ruined-nissan-gt-r-with-tw-1029580432 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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