Ceramic coating/thermal barrier coating on stainless manifolds

[BLOZ UP]

I took my stainless, tubular exhaust manifolds to my local speed shop/machine shop. I was talking with the head honcho about ceramic coating. He said in no uncertain terms that I should not coat them, as I will loose some or most of the "sonic scavenging effect".

 

I didn't believe him, so he showed me an exhaust flange, dangled it and tapped it with some metal to make it ring. Then he said if you ceramic coat that it will lose the property that makes it ring, or something to that effect. After I said I didn't think that was a valid comparison he stated his race engine experience and such and such. It's true, he's made lots of power. He also said NASCAR, et al would be using ceramic coatings on their stainless if it helped. Don't know about that either.

 

So, is that true? Can ceramic coating stainless manifolds--he specified it was only stainless that was going to lose power, not mild, can it really have that effect? I thought the scavenging effect was due to pressure waves (so sure, sound waves) of the gas itself. I would think the "sonic properties" of the material will have an effect, but not to the degree he's implying.

[NewZed]

Some race car teams install speakers in the engine bay.  They've found that the engine makes more power when Metallica is played, Madonna slows the car down, and Lynyrd Skynyrd causes the car to spin the wheels and crash in to other cars.  Rap music causes the engine to shoot nuts and bolts through the fenders. 

 

What race engine experience did he state?  Dirt track or Formula 1?  

[RB26powered74zcar]

Some race car teams install speakers in the engine bay.  They've found that the engine makes more power when Metallica is played, Madonna slows the car down, and Lynyrd Skynyrd causes the car to spin the wheels and crash in to other cars.  Rap music causes the engine to shoot nuts and bolts through the fenders. 

 

What race engine experience did he state?  Dirt track or Formula 1?  

 

 

 

[BLOZ UP]

Some race car teams install speakers in the engine bay.  They've found that the engine makes more power when Metallica is played, Madonna slows the car down, and Lynyrd Skynyrd causes the car to spin the wheels and crash in to other cars.  Rap music causes the engine to shoot nuts and bolts through the fenders. 

 

What race engine experience did he state?  Dirt track or Formula 1?  

 

Got it. Need to relocate speakers to the engine bay.

 

Drag racing. Lots of local articles and tidbits about him. Not that that means he's right, but he at least has some idea.

Edited February 4, 2014 by BLOZ UP

[NewZed]

Could be that he has actually seen effects after ceramic coating.  But it's unlikely that they're related to the noise the metal makes when it's tapped on.  Correlation confused with cause/effect.

 

Really though, your story just sounds like someone being messed with, or his general MO is to cause confusion and look crazy so that nobody can figure out he makes his power.  It's a diversion, like a magic trick.  His manifolds are probably all ceramic-coated.

[BLOZ UP]

Yeah, I thought I was being trolled as well, since the more I didn't believe him the more he tried to convince me.

[CCPcoatingscom]

I took my stainless, tubular exhaust manifolds to my local speed shop/machine shop. I was talking with the head honcho about ceramic coating. He said in no uncertain terms that I should not coat them, as I will loose some or most of the "sonic scavenging effect".

 

I didn't believe him, so he showed me an exhaust flange, dangled it and tapped it with some metal to make it ring. Then he said if you ceramic coat that it will lose the property that makes it ring, or something to that effect. After I said I didn't think that was a valid comparison he stated his race engine experience and such and such. It's true, he's made lots of power. He also said NASCAR, et al would be using ceramic coatings on their stainless if it helped. Don't know about that either.

 

So, is that true? Can ceramic coating stainless manifolds--he specified it was only stainless that was going to lose power, not mild, can it really have that effect? I thought the scavenging effect was due to pressure waves (so sure, sound waves) of the gas itself. I would think the "sonic properties" of the material will have an effect, but not to the degree he's implying.

 LOL, You are correct.  I'd have to call BS on that one.  I don't care what sound it makes when you hit it with a wrench.........   Scavenging in a  4 stroke scenario would involve pressure waves / back pressure as you've addressed.  I can't see where sound waves would have any affect. 

 

As for NASCAR, I think they have rules prohibiting such coatings.  If you need validation for coating both SS and inconel, look at F1 cars that use numerous types of coatings..... 

[Nelsonian]

Sounds quit contradictory to what Swain coat touts in their ads.They never mentioned any particular type of metal either.

[johnc]

That's why the Organ Pipe headers on Grandpa Munster's Drag-U-La dragster are so effective.

 

 

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=l48cq1kQRcY&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dl48cq1kQRcY

[roger280zx]

NASCAR would be using turbos if they helped.  And my engine only responds to "Ride the Lightning" "Kill em All" "And Master of Puppets".

[BLOZ UP]

Ok, ok, I got it. I'll take my ceramic coating work elsewhere. He didn't do it in shop, but sent it out somewhere. This is after he bad-mouthed swain tech and said I didn't need 2,000 degree coating--the 1,500 degree one would be enough, even for a turbo car.

 

There's a local place near my house that does coatings, he also said didn't do a great job. Sounds like he just wants his buddy to get work more than give out any useful advice. I'll give them a try.

Edited February 5, 2014 by BLOZ UP

[CCPcoatingscom]

Ok, ok, I got it. I'll take my ceramic coating work elsewhere. He didn't do it in shop, but sent it out somewhere. This is after he bad-mouthed swain tech and said I didn't need 2,000 degree coating--the 1,500 degree one would be enough, even for a turbo car.

 

There's a local place near my house that does coatings, he also said didn't do a great job. Sounds like he just wants his buddy to get work more than give out any useful advice. I'll give them a try.

If its a normally aspirated application,1500F material would suffice.  ALL supercharged or turbo charged applications require a High Temp Ceramic which will be rated at 2000+.  Natuarally this excludes ALL bright / polished ceramics as well in that they are only rated at 1000F - 1100F metal temp which translates to 1300F -1700F EGT temps......

[BLOZ UP]

Yeah, I know. Everything I've read, Corky Bell, Swain Tech, Vizard, etc. etc. say 2000 degree at least for a turbocharged application.

 

I've witnessed 1300 degrees back on my old VG30ET after running it hard--and if IIRC, that was right at the turbine outlet, rather than the manifold itself.

 

The guy does come off as a sort of blowhard, but I try to give them the benefit of the doubt. You know, age and all that.

Edited February 5, 2014 by BLOZ UP

[CCPcoatingscom]

Yeah, I know. Everything I've read, Corky Bell, Swain Tech, Vizard, etc. etc. say 2000 degree at least for a turbocharged application.

 

I've witnessed 1300 degrees back on my old VG30ET after running it hard--and if IIRC, that was right at the turbine outlet, rather than the manifold itself.

 

The guy does come off as a sort of blowhard, but I try to give them the benefit of the doubt. You know, age and all that.

 

A blowhard indeed.  This is what NON High Temp Ceramic looks like in Supercharged and Turbo applications and a Swain tech application for good measure.....

 

 

 

 

 

[Tony D]

Interesting sales approach, demonstrate a total lack of understanding of resonant frequency dampening of components....and the try to use it to keep from doing work!

 

Generally stainless doesn't require thermal coatings as it withstands the heat much better than mild steel. It also does not transmit heat as well, so there are less radiant heat issues for nearby components.

 

Nothing says you can't apply thermal barriers to SS, but it would be more for nearby component radiant heat reduction than to protect the SS component from degrading (like on mild steel.)

 

Then again, a nice SS or Aluminum Heat Shield between the heat source and component works just as well!

[CCPcoatingscom]

Interesting sales approach, demonstrate a total lack of understanding of resonant frequency dampening of components....and the try to use it to keep from doing work!

 

Generally stainless doesn't require thermal coatings as it withstands the heat much better than mild steel. It also does not transmit heat as well, so there are less radiant heat issues for nearby components.

 

Nothing says you can't apply thermal barriers to SS, but it would be more for nearby component radiant heat reduction than to protect the SS component from degrading (like on mild steel.)

 

Then again, a nice SS or Aluminum Heat Shield between the heat source and component works just as well!

 

SS doesn't radiate heat? First off, the comparison between SS and mild steel would be contingent on alloy and wall thickness.  Either way, you may want to re-calibrate your data acquisition equipment again.  A / B test a set of mild steel and SS headers and let me know which one burns the shit out of your hand when you grab it 20 minutes later......  Below are some samples of  some of your "none degrading, radiant heat impermeable, stainless steel" headers.  Obviously these oxidized and turned every color in the rainbow because they run so cool.....  LMAO....  

 

I almost forgot, these examples are all NORMALLY ASPIRATED.  I wonder what happens when you throw a turbo or supercharger in the mix?  Does it become even more thermally efficient?  

 

1) $10,000, FULLY POLISHED 304SS exhaust from a 2007 Ferarri F430

 

409SS street header from a 5.3 sbc

 

BRAND NEW kooks 409SS sbc headers after only 5 hours of a 750F bake

Edited February 8, 2014 by CCPcoatingscom

[Tony D]

Shut up, that's not what I said.

 

You want to bang home whatever point you want, go right ahead.

 

I stand by what I wrote. It's not what you twisted in your infantile repost.

[BlackdogNY]

I have heard the theory of coating s/s pipe, keeps the heat inside the exhaust. Just doing the inside in the case of 321 or 304. 409 will rust so you would do both, the outside for appearance. In a n/a application, headers and complete exhaust can be done. My personal opinion on a turbo would be a coating from the DP back, just in case something flakes off in the headers. Most people put the coatings on because they look good. Not sure of a hp gain, but unless the costs have come down a lot, it is not cheap to do a complete system inside and out. Last time, it turn out to be almost as much as having it 304 ss. As a added kick in the nuts it rusted very quickly. Most companies will recoat a rust issue, but who has time to remove a exhaust, send it back, wait 2 weeks and hope it works. After going that route once, every exhaust system I buy or make will be ss. If you have a heat issue...wrap it or as mentioned, make a shield.

(Above experience were from HPC and Jet Hot).

[johnc]

Stainless has about 1/2 the rate of heat radiation as carbon steel. Ultimately both will reach the same total heat radiation given enough time (2nd law of Thermodynamics) but it will take stainless about twice as long to reach equilibrium.

 

http://www.roymech.co.uk/Related/Thermos/Thermos_HeatTransfer.html.

[johnc]

In my experience, Jet Hot Sterling is a cosmetic coating that looks good under normal street use. For racing applications I prefer Swain White Lightening or Jet Hot 2000 in that order.