EvilC Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 (edited) So I ordered new front adj control arms from TTT for my rebuild of my front-end. Noticed the ball joint was mounted on the lower half of the control arm, thought about it and said hmmm haven't seen one fail. When installing them on the car - Rags mentioned to me hey those ball joints are on wrong. My passing reply - That is the way they have been installed via the pics and one install I found on the web. Understanding the load was being hung on 4 bolts instead of the flange should have been enough for me to swap it to the "correct oem: position but I didn't. Moved right along and installed them with TTTs bump spacer and it looked good, one side complete. I went to turn the rotor and grinding sound. The control arm leading edge was hitting the rotor face about 1/2" above the edge of the rotor. I am running the AZC brake setup. Stood back and you can see the angle of the tie rod and control arm were off. So apart it all came and moved the ball joint to the correct and I feel safer position. Put it all back together and now the rotor is resting on the edge of the control arm. So by moving the ball joint the control was put at the right angle with the tie rod. So I had to grind/cut the end of the control arm to clearance the rotor so it wouldn't hit lock to lock. The next issue I am seeing is how close the ball joint dust boots are to the rotors! I am thinking at a track event, the brakes will just cook that grease or even worst a melting of that boot and grease on the rotors. I am wondering how many are running the TTT arms with AZC setup or even AZC front brakes with AZC billet control arms? How does your angles look of your suspension and where is your dust boot located? This isn't a knock on the product just posting my experience. One thing I will say - I was surprised that TTT hadn't seen their products installed with AZC stuff. I couldn't find any pics on the net of the parts installed with a complete front strut setup. Lesson learned here is to use common sense and understand exactly what parts are doing what. Pics below show after the first trim where the rotor was hitting the LCA. As you can see, lock to lock it still hit and needed more trimming. TTT sent me an email of a drawing showing where the control had to be cut for clearance. I don't like cutting into brand new parts but sometimes it has to be done. Pic here shows the ball joints installed up top of the LCA right before the TC rod bolts were tighten down. Edited March 12, 2014 by EvilC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socorob Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 I just ordered mine yesterday. I have the 5 lug 300zx hubs with 300 disk and 4 runner calipers. I hope it doesn't cause me any problens. I hate having ti modify new parts, especially powder coated ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnosez Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 (edited) Been there, done that. Have TTT LCAs and TC rods along with the AZZC Wilwoods up front, a 1-inch bump-steer spacer and custom outer tie rods. LCA mounting point moved up 0.75-inches. Called TTT pretty pissed after I found out that they didn't fit. Trimmed them back til they fit and been running them for two years. I drive hard. No issues. My ball joints are mounted inside the control arm not on the top Edited March 12, 2014 by gnosez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RebekahsZ Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Cut em. The ball joint is strong. It won't hurt anything. Cut em more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duragg Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Good thread. F-LCAs are next on my list. Why TTT vs AZC or ? On a bad track day I lit my ball joint boots on fire... Replaced and wrapped with some heat shielding. The next day I was looking at a Dodge Viper Comp Coupe which was imported from some Brazilian race series and saw they had all their rubber boots wrapped this same way. Felt vindicated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilC Posted March 12, 2014 Author Share Posted March 12, 2014 Duragg - that is an awesome picture to show the conern I was speaking of. I will be wrapping mine with heat shielding also, thank you got posting. gnoesz - Has your car done any track days on the TTT LCA. I wasn't concered with hard street driving. The ball joint has the huge flange which should be where we rely on the strength rather than the 4 bolts. Hitting curbs on track days is the real test of the TTT setup. I for one won't take that chance. John, have any pics of the control/ball joint to rotor pic. RebekahsZ - the ball joint isn't the weak point. It is how it is mounted. Failure of the bolts not the ball joint itself. Also like I said, the ball joint boot def will see extreme heat due to the setup. TTT wasn't aware until I sent pictures. My issue really is parts being sold for a few years now with not many install pics, lack of awerness to the danger of mixing "aftermarket" parts and people including me not looking closely at parts we buy and question them. Duragg's picture is very key reason why we better do our homework. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RebekahsZ Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Dang-I just saw duragg's photo. It the problem the LCA or the backspacing of the top-hat/rotor combo on the AZC brakes? I'd love to see the heat shielding duragg added in a photo...?... F-ing domino effect! Why do we do this to ourselves-arghh! Some days I'm only a $10,000 offer from selling it all. For what it is worth, I did several hours of continuous curb hopping last year at AMP with my TTT control arms and all was well, but that was pre-AZC brakes. My brakes failed before my control arms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 The TTT LCA's are not the issue. The AZC brake rotors don't clear stock LCA's either. There's a thread on here about that... http://forums.hybridz.org/index.php/topic/63280-azc-wilwood-rotor-damage/?hl=+azc%20+brakes%20+nigel My rotors were ruined just backing out of my garage. I was livid! The clearance between the rotor and the ball joint boot is no different with stock LCA's either. Not quite following what the concern is about the ball joint vs bolt strength? Nigel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilC Posted March 13, 2014 Author Share Posted March 13, 2014 I guess, I will need to snap another picture that shows the ball joint dust boot almost touching the rotor. The picture I have up has two issues that hides the problem: The wheel is turned fully locked to the right and the boot you see isn't what came on the ball joints - I changed it. I believe I have less than 1/4" clearance between the rotor face and dust boot on the ball joint. The concern is it catching fire like the picture posted above. Some serious track time, I can see some heat transfer going on there from rotor to boot. Ball joint concern, is it being mounted on the bottom face of the arm rather than on the top face like oem ball joints are installed. Why not rely on the flange of the ball joint then relying on the bolts when it is mounted under the arm? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilC Posted March 13, 2014 Author Share Posted March 13, 2014 Nigel, never saw that thread and didn't know you missed some events because of it. I see where the info is on AZC site but the problem is I bought my brake kit 8 years ago from Dave and just purchased the LCA few weeks ago. If my car was running I could have ruined a set of rotors like others have. Guess we all live and learn BUT there should be a note on the TTT site or something in the package when you get the parts in the mail. If someone isn't looking for the rotors to be close and the car is in the air installed then we know what the outcome is. Hopefully this thread and the one you posted here will help the next person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 I guess, I will need to snap another picture that shows the ball joint dust boot almost touching the rotor. The picture I have up has two issues that hides the problem: The wheel is turned fully locked to the right and the boot you see isn't what came on the ball joints - I changed it. I believe I have less than 1/4" clearance between the rotor face and dust boot on the ball joint. The concern is it catching fire like the picture posted above. Some serious track time, I can see some heat transfer going on there from rotor to boot. Ball joint concern, is it being mounted on the bottom face of the arm rather than on the top face like oem ball joints are installed. Why not rely on the flange of the ball joint then relying on the bolts when it is mounted under the arm? No disagreement about the dust boot. BTW, I'm talking about clearance to the AZC rotor with stock LCA's, not to a stock brake rotor. Most of the ball joint force will be horizontal, so the ball joint bolts are going to be primarily under shear load in either case (top or bottom mount). I don't believe there will be much in the way of vertical force. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Nigel, never saw that thread and didn't know you missed some events because of it. I see where the info is on AZC site but the problem is I bought my brake kit 8 years ago from Dave and just purchased the LCA few weeks ago. If my car was running I could have ruined a set of rotors like others have. Guess we all live and learn BUT there should be a note on the TTT site or something in the package when you get the parts in the mail. If someone isn't looking for the rotors to be close and the car is in the air installed then we know what the outcome is. Hopefully this thread and the one you posted here will help the next person. I don't think TTT can really be held responsible for an issue with AZC's design though? TTT can't possibly take into account every possible variation from every other competitors product. It's a risk we take when we start mixing aftermarket parts from different vendors. What pissed me off is that the AZC kit didn't even work with stock control arms and there definitely was insufficient warning about that! But yes, live and learn. I'm tired of learning the hard way though. Nigel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilC Posted March 13, 2014 Author Share Posted March 13, 2014 I get what you are saying about the AZC rotor to stock LCA. I have never seen them installed together, didn't think that was an issue until I read the link you posted. I am guessing my mind works a little different. If it is know the aftermarket LCAs will not work with bigger brake kits that have the rotor moved inboard, why not have that area already cut out. It would ideal and it would work with stock brakes and any big brake kit. As for as OEM LCA then the warning on the website is good but also throw it in the box. If you buy them second hand then you leave it to chance. Even if not much load in the vertical plane, I would feel better if the load is spread along that flange. Either way for my application, putting the ball joint to the top of the LCA put the front end all on the same correct angle to get rid of the bump steer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilC Posted March 13, 2014 Author Share Posted March 13, 2014 I hear you Nigel!!!! I guess what got under my skin is that TTT knows of the issue and even has a recommended fix - grind away. That is fine really just that there wasn't a warning or conversation when placing the order "Hey what setup of brakes do you have on your car?" O well, next need to tackle the dust boot to make sure it doesn't catch fire >=} And for anyone wondering TTT was very prompt to answer my phone call and concerns with the LCA and brake setup. Gabe does provide good customer service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnosez Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 One suggestion is to brake less.....pictures when I get back home of my set up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m1ghtymaxXx Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 (edited) Rotor to LCA interference seems to be a common issue with big brake kits. We had the same issue on our Evo rally car. Went to install the our Willwood big brake kit a week before the event only to find there was about a 4mm interference, seems like a bit much to grind away from the control arm that close to the ball joint (fortunately the Evo III has cast iron LCA's which are certainly handle more to grinding than the earlier stamped steel pieces. I scrambled to draw up some CAD drawings of rotor and caliper spacers which the local engineering faculty cut from 1/8" aluminum the next day. It left about 2mm grinding to be done, far better than had we done without the spacers. Cooking the balljoint boots never occurred to me though. I wonder if there's room to fab a small sheetmetal heat shield to help with radiant heat... Unfortunately the S30's brake design with the rotor mounted to the backside of the hub doesn't allow for a simple spacer to move things out. Edit: I suppose a proper brake ducting setup with a backing plate would work wonders for keeping a steady stream of ambient air flowing between the hot rotor and ball joint, helping to minimize radiant heat transfer. Edited March 13, 2014 by m1ghtymaxXx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob L Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Great thread !...what im trying to understand is TTT is saying there lower control arm doesnt need to be trimmed with there big brake kit but it does with arizona z car brake kit ?....they both have 1.25inch rotors so how can it work with there kit at TTT and not Daves ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Great thread !...what im trying to understand is TTT is saying there lower control arm doesnt need to be trimmed with there big brake kit but it does with arizona z car brake kit ?....they both have 1.25inch rotors so how can it work with there kit at TTT and not Daves ? It's not the rotor width that's the issue, it's how much inboard it's offset. To simplify the caliper bracket, the AZC rotor is offset inboard to keep it centred in the caliper. This moves the rotor closer to the control arm. Nigel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob L Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 ^^^ ok gotcha ....well i just received my arizona z car brakes so im stuck with them now......also i read on another thread John Coffee stated that its a bad idea to grind your stock LCA...i havent been a member here long but it doesnt take much time to figure out that man knows Datsun z cars.....so now TTT coilovers you gotta grind and stock LCAs you gotta grind .....what if i buy arizona z car LCAs will these fit without modifing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socorob Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 It looks like theirs already comes cut away from the pictures in the links above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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