Tony D Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 I did not say anything was wrong with it, just that MS1 worked fine for me (and the OP) and it was just a question about evaluating "why" the change was made. Forging ahead without evaluating the reasons "why" seems foolish. If the MS2 box is not giving you anything you need other than the "me too" factor, and your MS1 was working fine....why waste your life's time fixing something for no gain? I'd vote to sell the issue to someone else I that case and go back to driving and enjoying the vehicle! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metro Posted July 7, 2014 Author Share Posted July 7, 2014 That's pretty much what I was doing over the weekend. Driving the car around on MS1, seeing how well it can be tuned with just speed-density. So far, it actually looks somewhat promising, but I know fine tuning it is going to be an issue without going blended. It would be really nice to have the 16x16 tables and 12x12 AFR table from MS2 along with MAF support, but I just don't think I can fix what's wrong with it. I've adjusted every single setting I could think of for fuel and spark and nothing helps. Granted, I still haven't tried what Sam recommended the other day with the 240cc injectors and disabled AFR-targets, but I just can't see that fixing it. It's just going lean and missing for some reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam280Z Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 You could also try getting the pw up to over 2.5ms (with the ve table or reqfuel) on the big injectors with include AFR off and fixed timing. You might have to let some more air in as well which will raise the idle speed. It'll be pig rich, but you'll at least be able to see if it is more stable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metro Posted July 8, 2014 Author Share Posted July 8, 2014 Unfortunately, I've done that. I've pushed the injectors up to 4ms PW and it still misfires and stumbles. That puts the AFR down to around 10-11, but on MS2 going that low almost makes the engine die. Whereas on MS1, it can idle that rich without much of an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 You should be able to idle fine at 11:1 AFR without noticing anything amiss other than your AFR meter says it's 11:1. At 10:1 you will start seeing black smoke out the tailpipe, but it should still idle smoothly but feel "loaded"... Missing occasionally after extended idling as the plugs load up. At 9.6:1 it will start obviously pumping out black smoke and rich misfiring. You will smell raw gas in the exhaust. It's nice to use AFR targets to tune towards... But really once the ECU is set with a baseline and good pulse width based tune with proper sensor trims... Where would you use this? Baro correction to enable closed loop under boost during a Hillclimb or mountain driving? I've heard of new fast-acting wbo2s that allow closed loop real time adjustment for OEM systems. It sounds nice and for current generation emissions compliance on engines that will abnormally wear during the compliance warranty period. I'm questioning here to see why you would add these variables into the loop. The primary focus for tuning ANY EMS since day one was to turn all corrections off, and get your WOT and idle stabilised on a warm engine, then enable corrections one-by-one so that problems that arise can be pointed to definitively as arriving with the introduction of the new variable... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metro Posted July 8, 2014 Author Share Posted July 8, 2014 I understand that, basically what I was trying to say, MS2 is broken. It doesn't react the way it should react. With MS1, I can flood the engine with a ridiculous amount of fuel and it just sorta starts to smell funny. With MS2, the RPMs drop so much it nearly dies. The only thing I can do is make it worse by adjusting settings. When it comes to tuning idle, I go for lowest Kpa and call it good. The only thing the AFR target table is doing right now is providing guidelines for VE Analyzer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam280Z Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Ok. I agree that there is a problem with either the ms2, the settings, or the install. Have you used the test mode in tunerstudio to verify that the injectors and coils are firing as expected? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xnke Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 I've had exactly the same experiance, and I just live with it right now. I haven't had time to fool with it since I drive the car daily, keep your foot hard in it and it drives beautifully. Part-throttle...with the MS2 chip, it is pretty bad. With the MS1 chip, the same pulsewidths deliver smooth performance. It's got to be in the firmware settings somewhere, I've reloaded firmware, changed to new updated code, all that...no improvements. Until the MS2-Extra code reference and installation materials are completely updated to the current code...I'm just going to get it to the running well-enough stage and wait. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metro Posted July 10, 2014 Author Share Posted July 10, 2014 Ok. I agree that there is a problem with either the ms2, the settings, or the install. Have you used the test mode in tunerstudio to verify that the injectors and coils are firing as expected? I honestly forgot MS2 had a test mode. I bolted a metal bar to the head with some spark plugs and played with the coil tester. The only slightly odd thing was the second spark for each coil was weaker. I suppose this is normal though, with the energy loss going through the first plug. The spark did sort of flicker in intensity, but all in all, I think it was behaving normally. I plugged in the MS1 ecu and cranked it to watch the spark and it looked about the same. I ordered an oscilloscope so I can check out what the injectors are doing when it's running. I'll try the injector test tomorrow to see what's coming out of the injectors, with a fire extinguisher handy. It's got to be in the firmware settings somewhere, I've reloaded firmware, changed to new updated code, all that...no improvements. Until the MS2-Extra code reference and installation materials are completely updated to the current code...I'm just going to get it to the running well-enough stage and wait. I wish mine ran likes yours did, but it's completely undriveable at all RPMs. It just misses and shakes violently the whole time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xnke Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 That sounds like an incorrect firing order...Double check that the firing order you are using is mapped to the same outputs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metro Posted July 10, 2014 Author Share Posted July 10, 2014 What like coils out of order? Seems like it wouldn't run at all. Playing with the spark test last night Coil A was 1+6, Coil B was 2+5, and Coil C is 3+4. It like runs smoothly for a second, then shakes violenty, drops 100rpm and repeats - at all RPMs and nothing readily apparent is wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leon Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Ford EDIS fires the coils A-C-B... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Ohhhhh....he plot thickens! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madkaw Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Your plugs look okay? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metro Posted July 14, 2014 Author Share Posted July 14, 2014 Ford EDIS fires the coils A-C-B... Thanks, but MS is firing the coils directly and it fires them in sequence. Although the output mods you need to do on the board ARE done out of order, which is a little disconcerting. Your plugs look okay? I honestly haven't looked at them lately. Before I started actually driving the car with MS1, they had a lot of little white flecks from, I'm assuming, predetonation. Unfortunately, I'm in the process of moving and the car is 200 miles away from me at my brother's house. It'll be a while before I can get back to work on it. Although I do have the MS2 ecu and I just picked up an oscilloscope to play with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leon Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 (edited) I'm curious if the ignition settings differ between your MS1 and MS2 setups, whether the difference be in the software or hardware. I'm not very knowledgeable with MS, not yet at least, so unfortunately I can't be of much help outside of general stuff. Edited July 14, 2014 by Leon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JES0486 Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 (edited) I am just reading to learn about EFI tuning and have come across something called Alpha-N (throttle angle-engine speed) algorithms to estimate engine load because it worked better on Stacked type intake with individual throttle bodies, when no common intake plenum is available for monitoring. Because large pressure changes with small throttle movement and since the pressure changes happen over small throttle angle the idle vacuum is less than on plenum manifolds. So that means its harder to get a solid MAP reading even when tubing or hose is connected to each chamber each pulse feeds a strong signal to MAP giving you a noisy signal. The Alpha-N algorithm uses throttle position to estimate engine loads and makes it work well. -This info is taken out of "Designing and Tuning High Perfromance Fuel Injection Systems" by Greg Banish. I'm still reading so I don't know if any of the MS's are capable of this algorithm but it for what it's worth it maybe that is why your chasing idle using MAP inputs on MS2, I was interested in ITB for my 2.8L N/A so I'm doing as much reading as I can between that and MS to properly understand how it works so that I can plan ahead. Edited July 24, 2014 by JES0486 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Yes MS has Alpha-N incorporated. It's a choice on the setup screens. Alpha-N vs Speed Density. Really unless you have very LOW manifold vacuum from a big cam, Alpha-N should not be necessary. Electromotive came out with PAFZZBLEND programming on the TEC2 back in the 90's that allows a big cam engine with ITB's to idle and move off progression on Alpha-N and as MAP resolution stabilizes at higher RPM's it "blended" the signals until the engine was on straight Speed-Density MAP based fueling. I believe MS has this feature now as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winstonusmc Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 I have used the ITB mode on MS3 on my RB25ITB motor and it made it very stable at all RPMs. There is also MAP sampling angle the allows the MAP to same at the same point in the cycle to get more consistent readings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 That MAP-Angle feature seems like a very useful tool. I would think with that, Alpha-N would almost be un-necessary on most mildly-cammed engines. Alpha N is for when you have no resolution. Like 4-7" of manifold vacuum at your idle speed. It just becomes impossible to get a smooth transition as your MAP goes from 78-80 to 100 when you sneeze on the pedal.Having the "spikes" is more from mild cams with good vacuum. That is where that MAP angle would filter the signal quite a bit, and allow fast-response without the filters or restriction in the MAP line as usually done to mitigate 'spikiness'... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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