G-E Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Xnke I wasn't recommending unhardened cams as finals, just that 4140HT is adequate to make test cams, at least prove the K20 profile works on the chimaera The same machining code (assuming cnc lathe) can be reused later for whatever grade steel, 1060 would be a decent material to use for finals with proper through-hardening. No sense investing in $2000 cam cores from a supplier that's really not interested in doing custom work, seriously that's the "FU! leave me alone!" price... JWT sells cam blanks for various Z's for a few hundred, it's obviously doable to keep the budget reasonable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZGhost623 Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 I think one of the previous posters was right. Get the word out to more Z sites and clubs to spread the word. Maybe even a kickstarter campaign. I think that if you get some video up of it working, and probably dyno videos too (as people are going to ask) you may get more interest. Right now saying 10k without more solid proof to back the product up is a hard nut to swallow. Also I was curious on the intake and exhaust manifolds. Is anything on the market today going to fit this or will we have to get new exhaust and intake manifolds from you as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Datsun people are cheap. This is a VERY limited Niche Market. Even at 1/10th the price of OSG...and the ability to do what you want valvetrain wise...most are punters. This WILL take effort on the purchaser's part, the more turnkey it is, the more it will cost. If people aren't willing to put in the sweat equity, and are unwilling to put in the $$$, then we're back to shit in one hand and WANNA in the other and see which gets filled first! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Posted October 5, 2014 Author Share Posted October 5, 2014 It is not uncommon for modified k24s to be making 350-400whp N/A these days, honestly it's just a matter of a port job and a combination of the right parts. There's no wizardry in it, anyone with a credit card can copy and paste one of the many known combinations. At the end of the day a $8,000-10,000 is surely expensive, however if these heads are 400whp capable and proven it puts them in direct competition with most swaps both in terms of power and cost. I bet you'd find there are more customers than you would first like to think. I mean even a basic LS or RB swap costs similar. And this guy gets it. It's a 6 cylinder K20 head. Apply whats already been done and you have power. I'm not going to address every individual comment about manufacturing the cores but they all have merit. Most of this comes down to Machine capacity and talent. I can't rough out a 30" core blank between centers on a lathe. It will chatter like there is no tomorrow. That means a steady rest setup for each journal. Comp cams can't seem to do it in one shot either http://www.mmsonline.com/articles/more-effective-camshaft-machining I seriously could make twice the money doing pattern work as it would cost to buy the blanks in the time it will take me to make two cores. But this doesn't solve the problem of production anyway. So no I won't be machining cores. I suppose the way forward is to find a lower priced 8620 core. Either through group buy or cheaper source. I can make patterns and chills to do iron cores. I can get them poured and certified. But if that only satisfies he lower HP builds then it seems pointless. Resources would be better spent towards machined cores. Which would be my preference. I agree with G-E. It did seem like a "go away kid you're bothering me" kind of price Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Posted October 6, 2014 Author Share Posted October 6, 2014 (edited) Ok I just entered the hell that is K20 forums. I made a post looking for grinders that cut their own 8620 billets. We'll see where this takes me. And quoting G-E again No sense investing in $2000 cam cores from a supplier that's really not interested in doing custom work, Exactly. If I have to spend 2000.00 - 3000.00 for the first set I'd rather spend it with the company doing all the cores. Also as I've said again and again it's a k20. I want a K20 company making my cams. There are some real crooks in the world of K20 so this could get interesting. The crowd sourcing ideas are good but I'm not comfortable taking money until I get my head running and one or two more cast. What I'm looking for is commitment like Dans I am a mouse fart away from listing my beloved RZ500 to send money your way... Now that's what I'm talking about:) Actually what I'm looking for is " if the head does this XXX and costs this $$$$$" I'm in" Not could be persuaded or thinking hard about. But IN. This will tell me what marks I need to hit. I've been at this selling S30 stuff over the interwebs for a while now. You'd be surprised how many people get lost looking for their paypal account after telling me they want a set of speaker panels:) I really hate to develop this head this way but I've got a bundle in it already and I need to really get a good grip on the market. It was really easy to justify before but from here on out it gets tougher. If you build it they will come won't cut it:) Edited October 6, 2014 by Derek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xnke Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 Good luck getting anyone from the world of Honduh to consider making a custom cam core...The only one I'd even bother to recommend is Dave at Crower Cams and Equipment...NOT the same as Brian Crower of honda/SR20 fame. Dave will do it for you, no problem Also, Mike Jones of Jones camshaft can do the job. He's not cheap, but you WILL win races. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 I sent the e-mail this morning, hopefully it's checked and I get a response by Monday Evening stateside time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaritimeRiceburn Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 Are you planning on printing all the molds or going to more traditional methods once you have the design down? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 I believe the answer would be "why"? The printed sand is good enough for the finished product and allows for immediate development changes anytime in the run (Ultimate Turbo Port head, Ultimate NA Port Head, etc...) You make a pattern, you get what you get forevermore! Like marriage, but with more onerous implications on personal performance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-E Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 Printed makes a lot more sense, revisions or upgrades could be rolled into the design with no extra tooling cost... Derek, you should also try kelford cams down under, I had spoken to them about some custom projects once upon a time, they seemed interested enough. BTW talking about chatter, if you do gentle passes for a base diameter for the main journals (as long as nothing is larger?), the machining could be done entirely between journals starting right at the chuck, the first 3-4" should be rigid enough as long as the end is in a rolling center? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Posted October 6, 2014 Author Share Posted October 6, 2014 Good luck getting anyone from the world of Honduh to consider making a custom cam core...The only one I'd even bother to recommend is Dave at Crower Cams and Equipment...NOT the same as Brian Crower of honda/SR20 fame. Crower cams and equipment was the first call I made. I was informed in a very " you're really bothering me" tone " If we don't have the core we can't make the cam". Then "can you recommend someone to make the core?" Answer-No. So needless to say I wasn't impressed. I don't know who I talked to but at that point it didn't matter. I will call back and ask for Dave if you think it will make a difference. Jones Cams link was pink so I know I was there. Not sure If I contacted them or not. Are you planning on printing all the molds or going to more traditional methods once you have the design down? Actually yes and no. The two ends of the head, the combustion chambers and ports and the water jacket will always be printed as a single unit. This way the core registration will never change between castings. Plus as was pointed out I'm not constricted by hard tooling. For example. After I cast the first one I determined machining each combustion chamber would be so much easier than hand finishing. And a lot more accurate as well. This is much easier to fix digitally than traditionally. The 2 sides I will most definitely be going to traditional as the surface finish is better with bonded sand and I want it to look purdy. BTW talking about chatter, if you do gentle passes for a base diameter for the main journals (as long as nothing is larger?), the machining could be done entirely between journals starting right at the chuck, the first 3-4" should be rigid enough as long as the end is in a rolling center? Agreed but as you know in turning as soon as you get the first chatter if you don't correct the situation then it just keeps resonating worse and worse. Then you have to stop, correct the chatter and proceed. That means me leaning over the machine the whole time. Also my lathe is a very tight accurate manual mill that I converted to CNC. I use it mostly for making custom tool holders and support items for the pattern mills. So it's not a production machine. Stop telling me I can machine the cores. I've had to talk myself out of it 3 or 4 times already:) I even had to call a machinist friend to talk me out of it! I know a time vampire when I see it. The non vtech K20 stick only has 6 lobes per side so there is a lot of material to remove. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LegnaZetr0 Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 It is not uncommon for modified k24s to be making 350-400whp N/A these days, honestly it's just a matter of a port job and a combination of the right parts. There's no wizardry in it, anyone with a credit card can copy and paste one of the many known combinations. At the end of the day a $8,000-10,000 is surely expensive, however if these heads are 400whp capable and proven it puts them in direct competition with most swaps both in terms of power and cost. I bet you'd find there are more customers than you would first like to think. I mean even a basic LS or RB swap costs similar. Keep in mind that those kseries making 300+HP na are vtec heads... I was once big into Hondas for many years as they were cheap and easy to build for fun street cars, but you take a vtec engine, disconnect the VTEC solenoid and that engine is going to run like poop compared to the power you're making with vtec funtioning. But, I realize these heads are being produced as a non VTEC head, so I'm sure they'll run healthy. Just don't make the mistake of thinking it'll make equal power to a VTEC head, cause it wont. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leon Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 Keep in mind that those kseries making 300+HP na are vtec heads... I was once big into Hondas for many years as they were cheap and easy to build for fun street cars, but you take a vtec engine, disconnect the VTEC solenoid and that engine is going to run like poop compared to the power you're making with vtec funtioning. But, I realize these heads are being produced as a non VTEC head, so I'm sure they'll run healthy. Just don't make the mistake of thinking it'll make equal power to a VTEC head, cause it wont. Why not? All VTEC does is switch cam profiles. No big deal, put a big cam in there and you're good. We've got a K20 Civic at the shop that makes 211whp with big cams and no VTEC. That 211 is at 8400RPM and the power curve still climbing as the motor was designed to spin to 9000RPM. This is on a dyno where stock STIs baseline at 225hp. The customer is more interested in it staying together than going for max power, and the sequential box is only rated to 230hp... Anyway, you're doing your due diligence Derek, keep up the hard work! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-E Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 Stop telling me I can machine the cores. I've had to talk myself out of it 3 or 4 times already:) I even had to call a machinist friend to talk me out of it! I know a time vampire when I see it. The non vtech K20 stick only has 6 lobes per side so there is a lot of material to remove. Sorry As you might have guessed, I've been less than impressed with most of the "experts", once they know I know what I'm talking about, I get the Wizard of Oz treatment, as in they start preaching about how awesome they are and how little experience I have... Little do they know, I eat "impossible" for breakfast Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Posted October 6, 2014 Author Share Posted October 6, 2014 Yea this cam thing has been tough. Not what I was expecting for sure. I've got enough info now so that I can have a coherent conversation when Ron comes back from vacation. This will give Tony some time to to work his angles as well. I've got the specs sent over to my steel foundry getting a core cast out of 4140 so we'll see how that progresses. I thought this was going to be a thread about 3D printed sand casting. Who knew it would really be about getting custom cam cores produced! Derek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xnke Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 I am going to bring it up again...make sure you can get the cam lobes hard enough. You're looking in the RC50 range...can your guys heat treat a 4140 cam to that level without making it so brittle it breaks under the spring load? Roller cam profiles RAPIDLY ramp up spring pressures when you start getting bigger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Posted October 6, 2014 Author Share Posted October 6, 2014 That is on the list of things to get answered. And thanks for brining it up again. I didn't mention it in my post as Things are a bit crazy. I'm thinking more of that being the prototype cam. I would have the mold 3D printed. This would allow me to complete the head and see what happens from there. I'm trying to get plan A,B and C in position so that I can make a decision where this is going after Ron gets back. Honestly though unless he has someone willing to work way under industry standard, the prices I'm getting for machined and hardened cores are probably pretty accurate. This may be a $10,000.00 or more head and that's the way it is. But it's not $40,000.00 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swami Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Thread of the decade! Amazing what is possible when modern technology is placed in the hands of inspired and talented people. Can't wait to see where this goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 The much disparaged "Old White Guys" do stuff... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Try these guys for your cams. They did the original cam for the engine Jim Thompson built for me. http://www.pipercams.co.uk/pipercams/www/index.php Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.