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Walboro Fuel pump whine..


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#21 palauoriginal

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 03:59 PM

editing, un momento


Edited by palauoriginal, 28 June 2016 - 04:07 PM.

75' Datsun 280z, L28ET swap, AZC coilovers // 76' Chevette 3.8l v6 swap

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#22 240zdan

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 05:51 PM

Holy crap. All the poor guy has to do is put a screen mesh type prefilter from edelbrock or aeromotive (which I have been running for years, my walbros lasted my 8 years and still going) so he can enjoy his car.

 

You guys should start your own thread and argue there.


72 240z rb26, PTE 5830r, powerfc djetro, ev14s, stance coilovers, gtr brakes and lsd, ventus rs3


#23 240zdan

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 05:53 PM

Sure, let's see some evidence from Audi about a pre-filter.  Not a strainer, with big holes, but a filter for small particles.  I've seen the in-tank plastic screens used on the in-tank pumps.  Not the same as that G3 paper filter.

 

The basic point is understand how the pump works and what it needs.  You've just gone a bit hyperbolic in your recommendations.  And a lot of these guys are using pumps with flow rates much higher than they need.  What L6 out there needs 255 LPH?  That's over twice what the stock pump produced.  It's just not needed.  Pretty sure that Nissan used the same fuel pump for NA and turbo engines.

 

No offense to anybody out there using the 255 pump.  But it seems to lead to more problems than it's worth.

 

 

Absolutley zero problems with  mine. 

 

OP you shoudl consider what I did. You dont need to hack up your floor you could probably get away with installing the stuff in ur spare tirewell. Then your fuel system will be rock solid and surge free!

http://forums.hybrid...tom-fuel-setup/

 

I used this type of prefilter

http://pitstopusa.co...d-aluminum.html

I do not remeber the microns, but from my reseach you cannot go to small as the inlet of the walbro needs FLOW. You only want to keep major contamination out at best. If you restrict the inlet with a paper filter you will get major cavitation (from my experience) and thats why you are losing pressure.  A tank clean may be a good idea as well though. If you're passing rust through your fuel system your filters/pump and injectors will all eventually clog.


Edited by 240zdan, 28 June 2016 - 08:49 PM.

72 240z rb26, PTE 5830r, powerfc djetro, ev14s, stance coilovers, gtr brakes and lsd, ventus rs3


#24 palauoriginal

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Posted 29 June 2016 - 12:28 PM

Absolutley zero problems with  mine. 

 

OP you shoudl consider what I did. You dont need to hack up your floor you could probably get away with installing the stuff in ur spare tirewell. Then your fuel system will be rock solid and surge free!

http://forums.hybrid...tom-fuel-setup/

 

I used this type of prefilter

http://pitstopusa.co...d-aluminum.html

I do not remeber the microns, but from my reseach you cannot go to small as the inlet of the walbro needs FLOW. You only want to keep major contamination out at best. If you restrict the inlet with a paper filter you will get major cavitation (from my experience) and thats why you are losing pressure.  A tank clean may be a good idea as well though. If you're passing rust through your fuel system your filters/pump and injectors will all eventually clog.

 

240zdan, I like your set up. There does seem like a lot of room with that spare tire wheel well gone.

 

Is a surge tank required for a lift pump --> walbro pump system? 


Edited by palauoriginal, 29 June 2016 - 03:58 PM.

75' Datsun 280z, L28ET swap, AZC coilovers // 76' Chevette 3.8l v6 swap

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#25 240zdan

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Posted 30 June 2016 - 04:44 PM

240zdan, I like your set up. There does seem like a lot of room with that spare tire wheel well gone.

 

Is a surge tank required for a lift pump --> walbro pump system? 

 

Thanks. I spent a while researching and designing it. So far I am very happy. I can slide the car, brake hard, accelerate, all with the tank on E on rs3 tires pushing it to the limits and zero pump surge. One of the best mods I did to the car. If I had to put slicks on the car and go on a road course the fuel system woudl be the last thing on my mind. I know its up to the task.

 

To answer your question: Yes the lift pump pulls fuel out of the main tank and circulates it through the surge tank. Since the lift pump is designed to pull fuel up it does the magority of the work. The carter floods the surge tank. Additionally the excess fuel from the efi system returns back to the surge tank. This means means the surge tank is ALWAYS full (if not under slight pressure). That means the walbro is forced to take in fuel from the inlet. It runs quiet, consistent, and draws less amps. It doesnt matter how hard you corner, the 4l tank is walys ready to give the walbro what it needs since it has two sources, the carter and the return from the efi.

 

If the efi pump fails, the motor will not start/run. If the carter pump fails, the efi pump will suck the surge tank dry until it runs out of fuel. Neither is likely to blow the motor.

 

I much prefer a setup like this to a sump/fuel cell as it retains factory fuel tank/fuel fill/fuel guage. It has been dead reliable since the day I installed it, and I swear my walbro is 3x quieter, even under heat.


Edited by 240zdan, 30 June 2016 - 04:45 PM.

72 240z rb26, PTE 5830r, powerfc djetro, ev14s, stance coilovers, gtr brakes and lsd, ventus rs3


#26 palauoriginal

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Posted 12 July 2016 - 10:29 PM

Went with a surge tank! The parts came in today and worked on what I could after work. Should be back up tomorrow :D

 

 

IMG_1433.jpg

IMG_1439.jpg

IMG_1436.jpg


Edited by palauoriginal, 12 July 2016 - 10:30 PM.

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#27 240zdan

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Posted 13 July 2016 - 04:11 PM

Very NICE! Just gota make an aluminum cover for it and dynamit it really well to keep noise out. My carter I can barely hear but the walbro does whine a bit. That fuel system will do very well with autox/slick tires and will help to ease the load on the walbro.  Post pics of the completed install.

 

You may have to relocate the top fitting to the side to make everything clear?

 

Youll be happy with it in the end. Those walbros just arent meant to draw fuel up from the tank and need a little help from a low psi high volume pump like the carter which is a workhorse, then I find they work extremely well.

 

One issue I see though will be fuel filter maintenance. When you remove the fuel filter you will have tons of fuel spilling in your spare tire well. It may be a good idea to install the filter outside of the vehicle. Alternatively you could install a union fitting between the fuel filter and tank outside of the vehicle  and drain the fuel from your surge system that way before removing and inspecting the filter. I try to clean mine every few months or so and always find a bit of junk in there.

 

One more thign I forgot to mention is make sure the fuel return line going from surge tank back into tank is large and unrestricted. You want the fuel to be able to escape back into the tank from the surge tank with as little restriction to promotote fresh fuel entering it from the carter. This will help keep fuel temps in the surge tank under control. A fuel tank with 1/3 or higher helps alot too.


Edited by 240zdan, 13 July 2016 - 04:25 PM.

72 240z rb26, PTE 5830r, powerfc djetro, ev14s, stance coilovers, gtr brakes and lsd, ventus rs3


#28 Chickenman

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Posted 13 July 2016 - 04:17 PM

Integrated Engineering makes some nice Surge Tanks for both single and dual pumps. They are for Bosch 044 and AEM 380 pumps. Unfortunately I don't think they fit Walpro 255 pumps. I believe the Walpro 255 is a slightly smaller Diameter than the Bosch pumps.

 

Edit: Having problems with direct link. Look under Products/Fueling Components/Surge Tanks

 

http://www.performancebyie.com/

co3a9137.jpg

 

 

co3a9153.jpg


Edited by Chickenman, 13 July 2016 - 04:21 PM.


#29 240zdan

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Posted 13 July 2016 - 04:29 PM

Integrated Engineering makes some nice Surge Tanks for both single and dual pumps. They are for Bosch 044 and AEM 380 pumps. Unfortunately I don't think they fit Walpro 255 pumps. I believe the Walpro 255 is a slightly smaller Diameter than the Bosch pumps.

 

Edit: Having problems with direct link. Look under Products/Fueling Components/Surge Tanks

 

http://www.performancebyie.com/

co3a9137.jpg

 

 

co3a9153.jpg

 

 

yeah that setup is nice. Keeps the pump surrounded with fuel and helps with cooling too. Less space required as well.

 

Ideally if I had my spare tire well Id have mounted the carter externally to the frame rail and that surge tank/pump inside the spare tire well.

 

I pondered the idea of installing this but the external walbro inline works well for me and was a cheaper option.


Edited by 240zdan, 13 July 2016 - 04:32 PM.

72 240z rb26, PTE 5830r, powerfc djetro, ev14s, stance coilovers, gtr brakes and lsd, ventus rs3


#30 Chickenman

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Posted 13 July 2016 - 05:01 PM

Here's some Technical Data from Pegasus Racing on Micron sizing required for different systems ( Oil and fuel ) which confirms what 240Dan has been saying

 

https://www.pegasusa...DocID=TECH00100

 

 

Specific Recommendations:

Differential or transmission cooler: 149 to 1270 micron. This filter needs to protect the cooler passages from clogging.

Engine oil pre-filter (inspection filter): 40 to 1270 micron. This filter needs to protect the suction side of the pump from damage.

Engine oil main filter: 8 to 40 micron. Crankshaft journals are often finish-polished using 23 micron abrasives.

Fuel system pre-filter (before the pump): 25 to 400 micron. This filter only needs to catch larger particles to prevent the final filter from clogging prematurely.

Fuel system final filter (after the pump): 1 to 74 micron. High-performance fuel injector manufacturers recommend a 10 micron or finer filter.

 

It is interesting that the fuel safe sock is rated at 31 Microns, which is pretty small. A lot of surface area though.

 

https://www.pegasusa....asp?RecID=7297

 

After much research I managed to find some data on the Fram G3 Micron size. Apparently it filters down to 20 Microns. That size combined, with the small media surface area is what was probably causing the pump whine. 240Dan correctly pointed this out and I was wondering the same thing way back in Post # 6:

 

 

Hmmm... my Airtex fuel pump has recently started to get noisy. I'm running a G3 filter as well. Have to check it to see if it's getting plugged.

 

I think I'll see what Aeromotive has to offer.

 

Aeromotive #12304 is recommended to be used as a fuel pump pre-filter and filters down to 100 Microns. It also has 60 sq inches of filter materiel, which is very important.

 

http://www.aeromotiv...uel-filtration/

 

So that answers my question from Post #6. The Fram G3 used in front of a stock Nissan Roller vane pump, " probably "  works OK as many people seem to have used it with no issue on Fuel Injected Z cars. But when you put a G3 in front of a High Performance Gerotor ( Walpro 255, Bosch 044 etc ) or Ceramic Vane pump it likely causes too much restriction and causes pump cavitation after a while.

 

Atlantic Z Car was one of the sites originally recommending the Fram G3 to be used as a pre-filter ahead of the Fuel Pump. I'm switching mine out for an Aeromotive SS Mesh filter...

 

http://atlanticz.ca/...ilter/index.htm



#31 240zdan

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Posted 13 July 2016 - 09:03 PM

Here's some Technical Data from Pegasus Racing on Micron sizing required for different systems ( Oil and fuel ) which confirms what 240Dan has been saying

 

https://www.pegasusa...DocID=TECH00100

 

 

It is interesting that the fuel safe sock is rated at 31 Microns, which is pretty small. A lot of surface area though.

 

https://www.pegasusa....asp?RecID=7297

 

After much research I managed to find some data on the Fram G3 Micron size. Apparently it filters down to 20 Microns. That size combined, with the small media surface area is what was probably causing the pump whine. 240Dan correctly pointed this out and I was wondering the same thing way back in Post # 6:

 

 

Aeromotive #12304 is recommended to be used as a fuel pump pre-filter and filters down to 100 Microns. It also has 60 sq inches of filter materiel, which is very important.

 

http://www.aeromotiv...uel-filtration/

 

So that answers my question from Post #6. The Fram G3 used in front of a stock Nissan Roller vane pump, " probably "  works OK as many people seem to have used it with no issue on Fuel Injected Z cars. But when you put a G3 in front of a High Performance Gerotor ( Walpro 255, Bosch 044 etc ) or Ceramic Vane pump it likely causes too much restriction and causes pump cavitation after a while.

 

Atlantic Z Car was one of the sites originally recommending the Fram G3 to be used as a pre-filter ahead of the Fuel Pump. I'm switching mine out for an Aeromotive SS Mesh filter...

 

http://atlanticz.ca/...ilter/index.htm

100% agree with this. 

 

Seeing as the OP has gone with a lift pump tp force fuel into the walbro, and the lift pump now has a prefilter, I suspect he will have a reliable and robust fuel system.

 

Some may hate the hassle of running two pumps, but if you want to keep your tank OEM and unmodified its the only way to go.

 

A walbro inline with low micron paper fram that has to pull UP on top of that is a big nono. these walbros almost need a boost on the inlet to work the way they should.


Edited by 240zdan, 13 July 2016 - 09:08 PM.

72 240z rb26, PTE 5830r, powerfc djetro, ev14s, stance coilovers, gtr brakes and lsd, ventus rs3


#32 palauoriginal

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Posted 06 September 2016 - 12:12 PM

Late Update: The fuel surge tank has been working really well even at less than half-tank fuel levels. I am noticing a very small fuel leak at the -8an union from the surge tank to the walbro fuel pump. Probably should have left that as a flexible hose fitting/joint. 

But other than that the system is working extremely well and is really quiet. 

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Also, If I were to do it again, I would go with the fuel command center from FitTech. Good deal for the price, you get all the fittings you need and everything is in one neat package. I seen it in a summit racing add a couple of days after I installed the surge tank.

 

fif-40003_xl.jpg


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