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Companion flange 27 spline idea


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#1 jthom5147

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 11:37 PM

I want to start off by saying:
1) I'm not an engineer
2) Im not a mechanic by trade
3) if this idea is absurd, which it most likely is, then great.... but I'm trying to start the discussion to understand then WHY it's absurd.

I had been working on my axle setup for a while, not being able to stomach the $ for quality companion flanges, so I did some google searching and found a commercially available 27 spline pinion flange(available from multiple manufacturers and sources). I bought one because research and the spline shape and diameter match the 280z stub axles that I have lying around.

It's not a direct fit with the OE 4-bolt u-joint companion flange though. The OD where the grease seal is a few mm smaller than the OE unit. Don't have exact measurements in front of me. If i am looking at the z rear bearing assembly correctly, the companion flange isn't a bearing surface, so the reduced diameter wouldn't change anything mechanically? Just require different seals.

And the throat for the splines is longer. This could be overcome through modifications?

At $40-60ish each, I can muck up 10 before I've gone through a pair of good quality ones.

Here is one example
http://www.coreswest...ase-trail-gear/

So, in short, using a pinion flange as a axle companion flange.Thoughts?

Edited by jthom5147, 28 November 2016 - 11:40 PM.

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#2 TimZ

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Posted 29 November 2016 - 05:54 AM

I want to start off by saying:
1) I'm not an engineer
2) Im not a mechanic by trade
3) if this idea is absurd, which it most likely is, then great.... but I'm trying to start the discussion to understand then WHY it's absurd.

I had been working on my axle setup for a while, not being able to stomach the $ for quality companion flanges, so I did some google searching and found a commercially available 27 spline pinion flange(available from multiple manufacturers and sources). I bought one because research and the spline shape and diameter match the 280z stub axles that I have lying around.

It's not a direct fit with the OE 4-bolt u-joint companion flange though. The OD where the grease seal is a few mm smaller than the OE unit. Don't have exact measurements in front of me. If i am looking at the z rear bearing assembly correctly, the companion flange isn't a bearing surface, so the reduced diameter wouldn't change anything mechanically? Just require different seals.

And the throat for the splines is longer. This could be overcome through modifications?

At $40-60ish each, I can muck up 10 before I've gone through a pair of good quality ones.

Here is one example
http://www.coreswest...ase-trail-gear/

So, in short, using a pinion flange as a axle companion flange.Thoughts?

 

Aside from concerns over actually finding a proper seal, and machining the part for proper fitment, etc., my main concern would be that the pinion generally sees less torque than the halfshafts do, by a factor of whatever your differential's gear ratio is (x3 - x4).  So, it may not be designed for the torque loading that it will likely see in service as a companion flange.  Is there any way to find out a general idea of it's maximum design torque?  Not flywheel torque, but the actual torque at the Flange?


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#3 jthom5147

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Posted 29 November 2016 - 08:49 AM

I had a hunch that the differential gearing would mess things up. Seems logical though that the input and output of the differential gear would see completely different forces.

I'll call a couple manufacturers and ask about design requirements, alloy/construction, and tempering.

Only way I can think of to test it would be to set it up and then break it in as controlled a manner as possible... adding incremental weights to a lever arm to apply increasing torque until failure? Drop weights onto a level arm to simulate shock, increase till failure?
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#4 Neverdone

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Posted 29 November 2016 - 09:58 AM

But a differential also splits the power to two sides, where as the front pinion will be seeing all of the torque coming from the transmission.

 

I would love for someone to try this out and see how much modification is required to make them work.



#5 TimZ

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Posted 29 November 2016 - 12:39 PM

But a differential also splits the power to two sides, where as the front pinion will be seeing all of the torque coming from the transmission.

 

I would love for someone to try this out and see how much modification is required to make them work.

For an open diff this is true, so in this case 1.5x - 2x the torque at the pinion.  For a limited slip I would assume it could send everything to one side for design purposes...


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#6 NewZed

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Posted 29 November 2016 - 01:00 PM

That's a good find.  Seems worth a look.  The axle, at a stress riser, is where failure usually occurs at the hub.  Their ad copy says "forged 5140"  which seems to have some high stress uses, according to the internet.  Cranks, for example.  Not clear if they are cutting blanks from forged steel or forging the shape and machining though.  Proper grammar would say "blanks forged from 5140...).  Anyway.

 

"Our Blank Output Flange is made from forged 5140 chromoly steel. "

 

Number and diameter of splines and shaft won't tell you if it's a good fit for the axle though.  You won't know until you try it.  Spline shapes differ.  You'll need to do some machining also, either a new distance spacer, or the flange, to fit the hub.

 

Still interesting though.  I'd spend $30-40 just to mess around with it.



#7 ArizonaZ

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Posted 29 November 2016 - 01:14 PM

Does anyone know what the original flanges are made of? I bet that 5140 is probably a stronger material than what Nissan used.I also just ordered one to play with. If it works out I'll be using it for a 930 cv flange.

#8 jthom5147

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Posted 29 November 2016 - 03:06 PM

This is the one I bought:
http://www.4wheelpar..._pn=G/290-2058M

Been sitting in my shop for more than a year untouched.

I'll get my calipers out and take measurements.

Timken offers a grease seal that looks like a replacement for the OE grease seal, but with a narrower inner race diameter.

I gave my set of 280z stub axles to my dad, so RE-measuring the necessary "throat" removal for spline engagement and the stub axle nut threads won't be as simple, but If I remember right it was to cut off about 1/2 inch. I don't have machining equipment, so I was goofing with a grinder and a mock-lathe.
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#9 LLave

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Posted 29 November 2016 - 03:41 PM

I love the idea, that is real hot rodding and what made Hybridz great. 



#10 jthom5147

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Posted 30 November 2016 - 10:06 AM

I couldn't find my calipers and had to put my daughter to bed. I took some photos though.

Attached Files


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#11 NewZed

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Posted 30 November 2016 - 11:00 AM

Have you stuck an axle through there yet?



#12 ArizonaZ

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Posted 30 November 2016 - 11:13 AM

From what I was able to find online, the diameter of the Toyota bore should be 28mm or about 1.1". I could only find one reference to the diameter of the Datsun axle, and that put it at 1.09" or 27.69mm. 



#13 jthom5147

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Posted 30 November 2016 - 11:17 AM

I did stick an axle through it. Snug fit. That's where the grease on the tip of the flange in the photos came from.
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#14 NewZed

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Posted 30 November 2016 - 11:18 AM

It's the shape of the teeth and the grooves that will get you.  I picked up a J30 diff because it has a 28 spline axle (just to mess around with, I know that the VLSD has la longer axle) and found that the stock Z axles were sloppy in the J30 and the stock J30 axles were very tight in their original home.  Can't remember if I tried the J30 axle in the Z R200 or not.  That's why I  bring it up though,.  It's more than number and diameter.



#15 ArizonaZ

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Posted 30 November 2016 - 11:23 AM

Well I ordered a blank flange yesterday. I am in the process of putting on some ground control coil overs, so I can pull my stub axles and take some measurements. I am a machinist, so I should be able to modify the flange as long as the spline portions mate pretty well.



#16 NewZed

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Posted 30 November 2016 - 11:23 AM

I did stick an axle through it. Snug fit. That's where the grease on the tip of the flange in the photos came from.

If you decide to try the machining to make it work, you might look in to another heat treatment to get the desired physical properties, if you can't determine what you have now.  Although I think heat treatment can change your dimensions.



#17 ArizonaZ

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 10:21 AM

Here's the update. I received my blank flange today and got to measuring it. Before I did that though I test fitted it on my stub axle and I am happy to say its a direct fit in terms of spline count and diameter! There are a few things that will need to be modified to make the flange work though. As jthom said the splined portion is too long, long so it will need to be shortened about 10.4mm. The outside diameter is also 4mm smaller, so either a new oil seal will be needed or a 2mm thick sleeve will need to be put on the new flange. I drew up both flanges since I had them, and I will attach the 3D files for them. There are fairly quick measurements done with a cheap caliper, so please dont rush off to a machinist with the model and complain when they made something that doesn't fit. The splines are pretty accurate, but please treat them as just a visual representation as well.

 

If anyone is interested in looking at the models and doesn't have any program to open them with, I would suggest downloading Fusion 360 from Autodesk. It's what I modeled them in and its free to pretty much anyone unless you're a company that makes $100k+ a year.  

 

 

EDIT: I am unable to attach the .STEP files. Does anyone know how to attach them?

 

Attached File  Datsun stub axle flange v0.jpg   21.05KB   0 downloads

Attached File  Toyota Diff Flange v0.jpg   19.96KB   0 downloads


Edited by ArizonaZ, 07 December 2016 - 10:30 AM.


#18 ArizonaZ

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 10:24 AM

Also I forgot the mention that you can order the flange with either a differential or transfer case dust shield. I ordered mine with the differential one, and it is the exact same size as the original Datsun one.



#19 Neverdone

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 10:35 AM

Easiest way I've found to share files without a private server is with Google docs. I'm pretty sure you can attach any sort of file you want to share there.



#20 ArizonaZ

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 10:48 AM

Thanks Neverdone, I think that worked!

Here are the links for the downloads:

 

Datsun stub axle flange

Toyota diff flange






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