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Companion flange 27 spline idea


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#21 Neverdone

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 02:07 PM

I was doing some measuring on your parts. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

 

So to make this work, we need to remove 10mm of the blank material on the Toyota flange, then attach a sleeve that goes around the splined portion 2mm thick.

 

I draw up a sleeve that would just slide over Toyota part and hard stop against the back of the upper lip of the cone portion of the flange.

Attached File  companion flange.JPG   43.66KB   0 downloads

Attached File  Flange Sleeve.JPG   62.64KB   0 downloads

 

Any reason why this wouldn't work?

 

Not sure where to weld it to the flange...someone with more fabrication experience than I should probably chime in on that one.


Edited by Neverdone, 07 December 2016 - 02:11 PM.


#22 ArizonaZ

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 02:17 PM

Yep, that would work. I was thinking about how to attach that sleeve, and my first thought was to use loctite that is meant for cylindrical parts. I also looked into new oil seals and you can find 72mmx38mmx10mm ones pretty easily for ~$4 as well.

#23 jthom5147

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 02:41 PM

I'm super excited that you've been able to validate the suspicion on the spline compatibility.

Follow-up questions then:
1)Given an idea of the modifications required to make it interchangeable with the OE unit, would anticipated machining costs make this option cost-neutral or cost-prohibitive to other options that have been available to the community for years such as Chequered Flag Joe / Modern Motorsport?

2)Would the reduction in material around the splines (both from design and further rework) weaken the component to the point of inferiority to the OE unit?

3)Is the flange large enough to be practical for use with common CV options? 930, z31t, etc.

I'm sure these are all questions to be figured out as the research continues.
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#24 Neverdone

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 02:55 PM

1) 2 of these flanges will cost around 60 dollars. The ones Chequered Flag offers cost 440 dollars. If you can get the machining (cutting 10mm off the collar, making a sleve/ordering a larger oil seal, and drilling new holes in a concentric pattern to the axis) done for under 380 dollars, then yes.

 

2) It will be weaker. There's less material. Without running destructive testing or at least running finite element analysis on both, we won't know. 

 

3) The outer diameter of the flange is 111mm. I think the hole pattern of a 930 CV goes along a 94mm circle.



#25 ArizonaZ

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 03:04 PM

I plan on using these flanges with 930 joints, but I think a small spacer will need to go between the joint and the flange accommodate the plunging of the axle. I'm thinking a 5/8" spacer should be plenty. The outer diameter of a 930 joint is 108mm, so there is plenty of room for them.

#26 NewZed

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 06:53 PM

 

2) It will be weaker. There's less material. Without running destructive testing or at least running finite element analysis on both, we won't know. 

 

I don't think that there's less material at the typical break point, is there?  I thought that they usually broke at the spot where the splines end.  That would be the same size for both Nissan and these.

 

Many shafts are designed to be thinner in the middle, with a thicker spline diameter, to spread the load across more material.  But many are also designed for manufacturing efficiency and low cost, like Nissan's.



#27 Neverdone

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Posted 08 December 2016 - 07:14 AM

According to a lot of crawler and offroad buggy guys, the stock 27 spline flange doesn't cut it, so to make it last, they made it thicker.

 

Below is an example of the cross section of the stock 30 spline Toyota.

 

https://www.marlincr...fer-case-flange

 

If you notice they used to have a thicker version of the 27 spline...but don't anymore. I searched all over for it and didn't come up with anything.

 

However, for our cars, I still think the weak point is the stub axle and the half shaft. 

 

For anyone wanting to run 930 CV axles though, would modifying this flange be any different than just using these adapters?

https://zcardepot.co...-260z-280z.html



#28 ArizonaZ

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Posted 08 December 2016 - 08:38 AM

 

 

For anyone wanting to run 930 CV axles though, would modifying this flange be any different than just using these adapters?

https://zcardepot.co...-260z-280z.html

 For me the main advantage would be losing 8 fasteners in the axles. If you used the adapters on both sides of a single axle you would end up with 40 bolts in both of the axles! Getting that number down would be preferable to me. 



#29 NewZed

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Posted 08 December 2016 - 09:18 AM

A similar path has already been blazed.  A short summary at #20 here - http://forums.hybrid...axles-now-what/

 

Some good pictures at #18 here - http://forums.hybrid...y-blew-an-axle/

 

Oops. wrong side for RebekahsZ.  Still, similar topic.


Edited by NewZed, 08 December 2016 - 09:21 AM.


#30 ArizonaZ

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Posted 08 December 2016 - 05:35 PM

Well I may have found an issue with these flanges. The counterbore where the nut goes is shallower on the Toyota flange. When I make it so they match, there is very little material left. Attached are the sectioned views with some measurements.

 

Attached File  Part4.JPG   36.45KB   1 downloads

Attached File  Part2.JPG   34.65KB   0 downloads



#31 Neverdone

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Posted 09 December 2016 - 08:48 AM

What kind of nut does the stock Toyota use vs what the Datsun uses?



#32 jthom5147

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Posted 09 December 2016 - 10:11 AM

The diameter of the hole could be smaller than the Datsun unit by a little. But clearance for the stub axle threads is going to be a challenge, perhaps additional spacer for the CV axle plunge?

Attached Files


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#33 Neverdone

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Posted 09 December 2016 - 10:19 AM

Good point. Instead of measuring the hole the Datsun uses, measure the socket you normally use to remove it. It doesn't need to be much bigger than that.



#34 ArizonaZ

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Posted 09 December 2016 - 10:29 AM

I measured the washer and the 280ZX self locking nut stack up and its about 19.5mm. I'm thinking the flange may still work if less or no material is removed from the end. Unfortunately I already started machining mine, so I will need to get another one to play with.


Edited by ArizonaZ, 09 December 2016 - 10:34 AM.


#35 jthom5147

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Posted 09 December 2016 - 01:18 PM

If you wanna pay shipping, I'll give mine to you since I won't be using it.

The link for the source is in the posts above.
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#36 ArizonaZ

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Posted 09 December 2016 - 01:33 PM

If you wanna pay shipping, I'll give mine to you since I won't be using it.

The link for the source is in the posts above.

 

Thanks for the offer! Just a little too late though, I already ordered one last night haha.



#37 jthom5147

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Posted 09 December 2016 - 07:57 PM

NP. PM me if something changes.
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#38 jeffer949

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Posted 11 December 2016 - 12:58 PM

I like where this is going. Im just curious if we are going about this the wrong way. Instead of us modifying it. Why dont we contact the vendor. The changes needed wouldn't add to the production costs any or if there is an increase, it would be small. The company is already set up to make these efficiently and the hard part is the splines which wouldn't change.  The rest is just a different profile to make it suite our needs.  I'm sure someone on here would draw it up.  Seems the simpler way to go...


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#39 NewZed

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Posted 11 December 2016 - 01:09 PM

These are almost certainly Asia knockoffs, copied from a factory Toyota part.  $30.45!  Communicating with the supplier will probably be very difficult.  Worth a shot, but odds aren't good, I'd think.

 

With that in mind, consider also that they might not really be 5140, let alone forged.  It looks like a fun exercise and might lead to something good, but I wouldn't put too much faith in them when they're done, without some testing.  One of those things that's neat if it works but has substantial risk associated.

 

A follow-up might be to find a supplier of the same part, but from a verifiable manufacturer.  Probably cost more money but the leg work's been done on the cheap stuff.



#40 jthom5147

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Posted 11 December 2016 - 10:52 PM

I did try that already. All of the vendors are just that... vendors. I called Marlin Crawler, Yukon gear/axle, and I think one other and got dead ends. Worth another shot?
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