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Identify this differential.


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#1 softopz

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 07:28 PM

A friend of mine bought this differential as an advertised 1988 300zx turbo diff (clsd) not ss vlsd. When it arrived he immediately noticed the axles dont fit (280zx cv turbo axles). We opened and it looks to be a vlsd unit so we thought it was a 1988 shiro diff with special spline count. However the differential has a sensor on it which looks to be ABS maybe right on the snout in the front from my understanding the 88ss never came with any traction/abs control.

 

Attached are some pics of the r200 long nose. I did some research which leads me to say it could be from a infiniti m30 .

 

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#2 NewZed

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 09:48 PM

By "don't fit" do you mean the spline count is different?  Or the shafts are too short?

 

Why do you think it's a VLSD?  I'm not sure but I think that the Shiro was the only long-nose VLSD, unless Nissan used a long-nose VLSD with different axles on other models.   They went to shortnose in 1990 and VLSD for the 300ZX's, from what I can figure.  So long-nose would be 1989 or earlier.  I think.



#3 softopz

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Posted 14 December 2016 - 06:49 AM

They dont fit as in different spline count. It is a VLSD I could see the spider gears and way its made in carrier. The CLSD looks nothing this.



#4 JMortensen

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Posted 14 December 2016 - 08:45 AM

VLSDs have 30 spline inners with longer shafts and spline sections.

 

Pic:
http://s38.photobuck...D007-1.jpg.html


Edited by JMortensen, 14 December 2016 - 08:46 AM.

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#5 NewZed

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Posted 14 December 2016 - 10:35 AM

Just trying to keep my knowledge fresh, not arguing.  But I have a J30 short nose VLSD with 28 splines.  The older shafts slide in and fit but are a bit loose. And one is too short to engage the viscous "clutch" so it's essentially an open without the long axles, of course.

 

What about the short nose/long nose question?  Are there other long nose VLSD's besides the 1988 Shiro?



#6 softopz

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Posted 14 December 2016 - 12:07 PM

VLSDs have 30 spline inners with longer shafts and spline sections.

 

Pic:
http://s38.photobuck...D007-1.jpg.html

 

I will count the splines I think I counted 30 last time but I will double check. JMortensen is there Stubs or axles we could use with this setup to make it work either with 280zxt companian flanges or 4 bolt z31t? or did my friend just loose $600 on this diff

 

edit I just saw the pic which I seen before posting this topic, doesnt tell me much what axles or stubs those are. infiniti j30 tripod mated to a custom axle?

 

 

Well besides the SS I think this is another VLSD in a long nose. Do you know any other Diff with ABS sensor on flange


Edited by softopz, 14 December 2016 - 12:32 PM.


#7 seattlejester

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Posted 14 December 2016 - 02:48 PM

I seem to recall that the shiro axle could be used in the J30 swap as one of the options which would lead me to believe that it is also a 28 spline. 

 

That looks like the J30 inputs in that picture linked. The center section definitely screams VLSD though.

 

http://www.xenonzcar...lsdInstall.html

 

That might have some suggestions for engaging the VLSD, but if it isn't the common 28 spline most of those probably won't apply. 

 

According to this post, it seems like everything is 29 spline?

http://forums.hybrid...d-mystery-hlsd/

 

I wish I still had access to my inputs to count.


Edited by seattlejester, 14 December 2016 - 03:10 PM.


#8 seattlejester

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Posted 14 December 2016 - 03:09 PM

It is a 3.91:1 or basically a 3.9:1, but given that you can swap the ring gear that isn't exactly the best indicator.

 

That sensor on the housing is making it difficult. I've looked up all the regular culprits and some of the non regular culprits like S12, C31, R30, and none of those have that sensor. I've even looked at some truck differentials thinking it might have to do with front to back balance, but I'm not sure any of the older trucks had R200's. 



#9 NewZed

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Posted 14 December 2016 - 03:20 PM

Could the sensor be an aftermarket cruise control item?  Red herringish.

 

My "28" might be off.  With 240Z, 280Z and 280ZX hub axles and flanges, and the two differential spline counts I get them mixed up.  Ishould have left it at "my 280Z open diff axles fit the J30 VLSD diff".

 

The 3.9 ratio and long nose implies early 300ZX doesn't it?  That's why I was curious about if it's really a VLSD.  You can tell by looking in the hole and seeing where the internal splines are.  You can see where the two sides of the VLSD clutch split on the long shaft.



#10 seattlejester

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Posted 14 December 2016 - 05:11 PM

The sensor could indeed be a red herring.

 

I run with what I read and that gets me in trouble sometimes. Just making sure we don't suggest the wrong splines. I am curious if the 280zx turbo shafts are thicker to make up the slack in the J30 center. I had assumed they were the same since people used to jam the 280zx turbo axles to get CV axles in their 280z's without swapping differentials. I found it really tight to get the axle in there. Are you planning a swap into a long nose? I would be curious to see what you do for your axles. I have to revisit mine and I'm thinking the AMC axle route.

 

For the domestic market I think the 3.9 is more or less limited to the 300zx and maybe one or two years of the 280zx. I know the R30, C31 turbo I think both came with 3.9 as options, that is with the assumption that the ring gear wasn't just swapped onto an lsd center section. Being in canada the variety is up there to be from something we really are not sure of down here.

 

It looks VLSD to me, my open 300zx looked like a traditional open R200 from a 280z. The full housing kind of points towards the VLSD nature, and the clutch types you can usually see discs for maintenance purposes through the view hole at least in the subaru R180's you can. It would definitely help if you could take a shot straight through the center from the axle point of view, we can count splines and determine if it has the spacing for the VLSD center which would narrow the search.

 

I think more or less the bottom line depends on some assumption or eventual deductions. If it is a 29 spline center VLSD, your best bet is to find a non TC or ABS (I can't remember the one without the blades on the outer shaft) J30 and pull the input shafts from that, then run a hybrid axle linked above if you were so inclined to use the differential. If it is a 30 spline center VLSD, a Q45 is probably the car to pull the input shafts from and adapt your way out.

 

What makes you think M30 specifically?



#11 softopz

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 12:08 PM

The sensor could indeed be a red herring.

 

I run with what I read and that gets me in trouble sometimes. Just making sure we don't suggest the wrong splines. I am curious if the 280zx turbo shafts are thicker to make up the slack in the J30 center. I had assumed they were the same since people used to jam the 280zx turbo axles to get CV axles in their 280z's without swapping differentials. I found it really tight to get the axle in there. Are you planning a swap into a long nose? I would be curious to see what you do for your axles. I have to revisit mine and I'm thinking the AMC axle route.

 

 

What makes you think M30 specifically?

 

It definitely looks vlsd however when I spin one side of the input the other side does spin the same direction? I know on most LSD it suppose to spin the same direction however the viscous works on pushing fluid through gears ( correct me if I am wrong )and there is obviously no fluid in this thing. I haven't had time to count gears but from what I remember counting before it was 30.

 

Seattle don't worry your not in trouble with me. ( not just yet ) However I did some research for it on google and hbz and the only r200 *** long nose ** with ABS sensor came in a m30 unless this was swapped at one point. I message the OP he says he got some axles to work we shall see.

 

http://forums.hybrid...ith-abs-sensor/



#12 seattlejester

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 12:54 PM

Hmm my little search didn't bring up that plastic piece, maybe only on a certain trim of the car. You have to love this site lol.

 

If you look down the hole that the axle goes in, on a VLSD you will see that the passenger side has splines, then a gap and then more splines further in. I want to say the inner spline is the viscous coupling. The VLSD coupling is a sealed unit that has two or maybe more discs with a viscous fluid inside (doesn't need external fluid), under certain torque/load it basically locks the discs together causing the whole assembly to turn instead of sending power to one axle. Under low/no load it allows them to turn independently to a certain extent (you would have to over come whatever preload and the friction of the viscous fluid. I want to say mine turns together even with the wheels in the air, but I also shimmed mine up so that may be adding preload to the assembly. 

 

I think I made a video of mine blown apart I'll have to see if I can find it.



#13 jthom5147

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 04:03 PM

I can confirm VLSD units spin the same direction and not opposite directions like an open diff does.

A VLSD in a long nose sounds like a shiro, but is most likely a swap that z31 guys do.
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#14 NewZed

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 04:32 PM

Maybe the early primitive anti-lock brake systems just controlled front versus back but most control wheels individually.  You can't do that from the pinion shaft.  And the pinion flange is at the same speed as the speedo drive, so no differentiation.  And the ZX's went to electronic speed sensors pretty quickly so that signal could be used.  The short nose diff ABS had toothed wheels inboard of the axle flange.  Thar sensor is most likely a cruise control sensor, I'd think.

 

Just puzzle-solving.

 

Edit - wait.  the !989 240SX appears to have a sensor like that, that measures pinion shaft speed.  Guess they wanted to keep things separate from the speedo signal.  But it's a short-nose.  So close.

 

 

Attached Files


Edited by NewZed, 16 December 2016 - 04:49 PM.


#15 jthom5147

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 04:39 PM

Hopefully some of the following info help:

NA Z32 diffs are 29 spline VLSD. They are very common and inexpensive. A pic of the longer spline shaft is attached.

I found a thread on club-s12 about swapping an Early M30 diff with a v6 200sx diff. Im not sure which is which I'm the pictures, but one of them clearly has the pinion sensor. ABS, VSS, or Traction Control? Dunno. Club-s12.org/retro4/index.php?topic=19231.0
Edit: the first post in that thread says the pinion sensor is from the M30 diff.

Edited by jthom5147, 16 December 2016 - 04:56 PM.

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#16 jthom5147

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 04:45 PM

Photos of 280z vs z32 NA r200 stub shafts.

Attached Files


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#17 softopz

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 08:27 AM

Maybe the early primitive anti-lock brake systems just controlled front versus back but most control wheels individually.  You can't do that from the pinion shaft.  And the pinion flange is at the same speed as the speedo drive, so no differentiation.  And the ZX's went to electronic speed sensors pretty quickly so that signal could be used.  The short nose diff ABS had toothed wheels inboard of the axle flange.  Thar sensor is most likely a cruise control sensor, I'd think.

 

Just puzzle-solving.

 

Edit - wait.  the !989 240SX appears to have a sensor like that, that measures pinion shaft speed.  Guess they wanted to keep things separate from the speedo signal.  But it's a short-nose.  So close.

 

That is not the same sensor or way it mounts. The way it mount its different and comes with a pigtail mine is completely different.

 

Hmm my little search didn't bring up that plastic piece, maybe only on a certain trim of the car. You have to love this site lol.

 

If you look down the hole that the axle goes in, on a VLSD you will see that the passenger side has splines, then a gap and then more splines further in. I want to say the inner spline is the viscous coupling. The VLSD coupling is a sealed unit that has two or maybe more discs with a viscous fluid inside (doesn't need external fluid), under certain torque/load it basically locks the discs together causing the whole assembly to turn instead of sending power to one axle. Under low/no load it allows them to turn independently to a certain extent (you would have to over come whatever preload and the friction of the viscous fluid. I want to say mine turns together even with the wheels in the air, but I also shimmed mine up so that may be adding preload to the assembly. 

 

I think I made a video of mine blown apart I'll have to see if I can find it.

 

Im going to get some shots later tonight and measurements of the inside of axle splines .

 

I can confirm VLSD units spin the same direction and not opposite directions like an open diff does.

A VLSD in a long nose sounds like a shiro, but is most likely a swap that z31 guys do.

 

Its not a shiro , shiros dont have this sensor.


Edited by softopz, 17 December 2016 - 09:51 AM.


#18 NewZed

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 09:30 AM

no its not the same sensor or way it mounts. The way it mount its different and comes with a pigtail mine is completely different.

 

Its not a shiro , shiros dont have this sensor.

That wasn't my point.  I was just offering a clue.

 

Nissan did make some one-off parts, apparently.  The J30 short nose diff with the unique spline count for example.  Wouldn't be a surprise if they had ABS as an option on a 300ZX.  There are some things that didn't make it the the service manuals.  But Infiniti M30 diff seems like a reasonable guess.

 

Seems like kind of a distraction though.  The real story is that your buddy didn't get what he thought he was getting.  Hope he didn't pay too much.



#19 seattlejester

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 11:22 PM

At $600 that probably is a lot to pay for a VLSD diff, if he was sold it as a CLSD then he was had. If it was through ebay I would get in contact with the seller and see if he is willing to make things right.



#20 softopz

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 11:32 PM

It was sold as a clsd from an 88t and was through facebook :S






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