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T3 Turbo Sizing


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#1 cosmo

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Posted 15 January 2017 - 02:07 PM

I am currently converting my Z from carbs to turbo. 
F54, P90 head, flattop pistons, 60mm 240sx tb, 440cc injectors, intercooler, upgraded pump and lines
 
I want between 300-350hp to the wheels and want the turbo to spool between 2.000-2.500 but also have some top-end power.
 
I currently have my eye on these Turbonetics options:
 
T3 w./ 60-1 HiFi, st. bearing, oil cooled, F1-57, and .64 A/R (maybe .48?)
 
OR
 
T3 w./ T04E Super 60, st. bearing, oil cooled, F1-54 and .64A/R 
 
What do you guys think would be my ideal choice? 
Thank you!!!


#2 skirkland1980

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Posted 15 January 2017 - 08:56 PM

Check the compressor maps and see what will work.
:1983 280zx turbo, L28ET, custom cam grind, 96 saab 900 intercooler w/2.50" piping, 3" mandrel bent exhaust, megasquirt II v3.57, 540cc injectors, walbro gsl392 255lph fuel pump, aeromotive regulator, -6 supply lines, custom fuel rail, MSD ignition wires, MSD 8202 coil, homemade boost controller, Garrett TC4305 turbo, 70mm throttle body, Godzilla BOV, Turbonetics wastegate, custom intake, custom turbo header, Cooling Mist H2O/meth injection, 20psi boost, all stock body, stock interior and weld draglite wheels, TH350 trans 4000 stall with B&M 'street stick' shifter and hughes trans brake, nitto nt555R drag radials, best 1/8 mile of 7.53@ 98 mph

#3 seattlejester

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Posted 15 January 2017 - 10:54 PM

You don't get an ultra low spool and top end power. Short of a sequential you won't get both.



#4 cosmo

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 03:11 PM

Thank you guys, I guess they will be too slow then. Can anyone recommend a turbo that spools quickly (around 2.5 - 3k) ?

 

thanks!



#5 seattlejester

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 03:50 PM

Look up a compressor map and find a turbo that has a good efficiency island at a pressure ratio desired at 2, 2.5, and 3k rpm on I am guessing a 2.8L engine for the amount of horsepower you are looking for 35cfm from the sounds of it. There are formulas and calculators.

 

https://turbobygarre..._compressor_map

 

Excellent walk through. 

 

Spool usually means when a turbo is making peak psi. A turbo that makes peak psi at 2.5-3k is going to be a massive restriction on your exhaust at higher rpm, unless you have a massive prioritized waste gate. 

 

If you don't learn to look at compressor maps you are going to be at the mercy of someone's recommendation and their interpretation of spool or the boost threshold. 



#6 calZ

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 04:42 PM

Borg Warner actually has a turbo match bot that you can use to size a turbo for your application. It's pretty cool and will get you in the ballpark even if you don't want a B-W turbo.



#7 tim.d

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 05:58 PM

Said Matchbot:

http://www.turbos.bw...t/matchbot.aspx



#8 cosmo

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 09:53 PM

Thanks guys the links helped a lot!!

 

So after doing some math, I got to around 37.95 lb/min for 345hp (should get me in the 300whp ballpark) which then translates to around 18.4psi of boost (calculated with 5.6k RPM) and a pressure ratio of 2.55.

 

After translating that to the compressor maps I saw that the 60-1 is definitely too big for my needs/wants.

 

So my favorite right now: T04E50 Trim, what do you guys think? Also, does anyone know where to get ALL Turbonetics maps for their current lineup? I only found 7 on their website.

 

Vm7MUVT.jpg


Edited by cosmo, 18 January 2017 - 09:55 PM.


#9 malibud

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 04:44 AM

I am sure others will chime in but that is a lot of boost on those flat top pistons. I am curious what others have run on flat tops 



#10 TimZ

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 05:11 AM

Thanks guys the links helped a lot!!

 

So after doing some math, I got to around 37.95 lb/min for 345hp (should get me in the 300whp ballpark) which then translates to around 18.4psi of boost (calculated with 5.6k RPM) and a pressure ratio of 2.55.

 

It's not a terribly big deal at this point but 18.4psi boost does not result in a PR of 2.55 - more like 2.25.  Typo maybe, or trying to account for losses through the induction system?


Edited by TimZ, 19 January 2017 - 05:14 AM.

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#11 seattlejester

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 11:46 AM

Way to take it in stride man. 

 

That would be a good turbo for your needs from a quick glance. Doesn't look like you would have too much room to grow, but the spool should be happening on the lower side of things which seems to be your bigger priority. 

 

I would recommend a look at the SX-E line from borg warner if you a bit of budget to play with. Their offerings are pretty substantial, a lot more efficiency on tap so you can run that same 50mm inducer wheel to higher boost levels before you start heating up the air.

 

Curious what the desire for the low spool rpm was. 2k rpm is pretty much a touch of the throttle, do you want that instant response like from a bigger engine? If that is the case then this is all wrong as you are looking for a supercharger. 



#12 Chickenman

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 04:40 PM

I'd definitely be looking at a good set of Forged pistons at anything over 10 lbs of boost. I see you're in California? What are you planning to run for fuel. If 91 pump gas, you're going to have to keep the CR down to around 9.0, unless you run a lot of H20/Meth injection ( Well recommended ) .

 

We have some high CR Turbo cars running locally in the PNW .  Keth L run 10.1+ CR on his stroker L20B ( 2.3 L ) . 16 lbs boost, with big intercooler ,Water/Meth and C16 fuel!! But he pushes 300 RWHP out of that 4 banger all the time.  ( No E85 up here  to speak of ) . Can you get E85 in California? Go for it if you can.

 

A good EFI system will help keep things alive. The AEM Infinity series have gotten a lot of good reviews ( although they do have a recall on now for early models with a weak Internal Power relay ). Audi/VW guys are really liking them. Haltech is also really, really good but $$$. Whatever you decide to use, I would definitely set it up with twin Bosch WB Knock sensors on a Forced Induction motor. Modern EFI systems have all the tuning and Data logging tables to make adjustment of modern WB Knock sensors relatively easy.  



#13 Chickenman

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 05:00 PM

This fast enough spool for you? AWD Rabbit with 2.0 L VW 16 valve  Turbo engine. GT2871R ( Ball Bearing Turbo )  around 18 lbs boost. Virtually no lag. Josh  Autocrossed this car as well. Would work well on an L24 and give you more than enough power.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=fiYg9okV-ME


Edited by Chickenman, 19 January 2017 - 05:03 PM.


#14 cosmo

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 05:38 PM

Thanks for the input guys!

I wanted a quick spooling turbo but you are right, after going through all the maps 3k sounds pretty 'right' to me.

 

I thought of either getting forged pistons or getting a 2mm metal gasket which would give me a CR of 7.86:1with the flattops.

91 fuel, Megasquirt 3Pro (at least that's the plan)

 

This is the turbo I thought of getting:

cRQcMul.png



#15 seattlejester

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 12:32 PM

Do you get a discount if you order from turbonetics? Why are all your selections from them?

 

You are paying a lot for an old turbo with old tech.

 

~750

The SX line has extended tips so flows more air while maintaining the same size

https://agpturbo.com...x-turbocharger/

 

~850 with your desired hotside

The SX-E line has so many improvements for that extra 100$ that it would be silly to try and justify not getting it. Still cheaper then the turbonetics turbo.

https://agpturbo.com...61-12709095019/

 

~850 

The GT28 would reach your power goals and spool quite quickly, these are usually used on 2L SR20's though so you would spool quite a bit sooner with a 2.8L, but most likely run out of puff sooner as well.

 

~775 

Precision 5431 with a billet wheel

http://www.treadston...ct.phtml?p=2304

 

The only downfall is that some of these would potentially flow too well and make too much power would require quite the wastegate. I'm guessing you are running a ZXT manifold so no native waste gate could make some of these offerings difficult to control.



#16 cosmo

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 02:16 PM

Thanks @seattlejester!!! 

 

After checking these out I have to admit I really like the S252SX !! I thought of getting the GT28 before but after all the research I think it might be a tiny bit too small.

 

I will be running a wastegate (T3-T3 spacer with WG outlet) to get the boost under control.

 

 

Thank you! 


Edited by cosmo, 20 January 2017 - 02:28 PM.


#17 rossman

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 03:21 PM

Take a look at this one:  https://turbobygarre...gtx3576r-gen-ii



#18 seattlejester

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Posted 21 January 2017 - 03:00 PM

^That is way way too big for his goals.

 

A wastegate spacer  has horrendous priority and most likely isn't going to be able to fit a big enough waste gate bad for big and small turbos



#19 cosmo

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Posted 21 January 2017 - 05:48 PM

That's what I was fearing especially running close to 20psi of boost. So I guess I'll have to get the manifold welded.

#20 seattlejester

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Posted 21 January 2017 - 10:19 PM

For a big hotside it won't matter as much as the exhaust will have somewhere to go, but with your desired short spool requirement that means running a fairly small hotside which means that it will cause a back log and restrict the exhaust. That and the fact the T3 foot print is already small means you are going to have some flow restriction as is.

 

20lbs on a flattop seems pretty high off the bat, not sure you can run that with california 91. Where are you getting your numbers? I am pretty sure the borgwarner turbo's don't need to push nearly that much in fact you would be over 400hp at 20lbs if memory serves. The 256sx makes almost 600hp at 20lbs at 7000rpm. Even I think the GT28 would be quite a bit over 300 at 20lbs if it is still efficient.






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