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Oh boy another S12+8 Caliper Thread - I.D. my setup

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Posted (edited)

Ok, I've read thru the brake FAQ and so many different posts that I've gone and confused myself.  Just trying to figure out exactly what I already have so I can buy new rotors.

 

I believe what I have here is the S12W calipers for vented rotors, which makes sense considering the rotors on my car are vented. There is NO spacer between the rotor/hub, so if I understand things correctly I have stock size 70-73 front rotors?  The diameter is ~10.65 and the rotor bolt pattern is 4 x 4-1/16".  If this isn't true, what the heck do I have?  If this IS true, what would be the benefit of getting spacers and 84-85 300zx non-turbo front rotors?

 

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On the rear I know I have S13 240sx calipers, but I'm confused about the rotors.  Currently on my car are ~10.125" diameter vented rotors.  I thought I needed 84 300zx non-turbo rear rotors, so I ordered cheap solid face rotors for that application, but what I received was NOT vented and way too big at 11.4" diameter.  Do I need 280zx rear rotors? s13??

 

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Thanks for any help/insight/advice/recommendations!

Edited by Domesticated

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Posted (edited)

Those are drilled rotors, not vented rotors.

 

S12w calipers have "s12w" in the casting and (iirc) all pistons are equal diameter vs the +8 caliper at 43/38mm (ish).

 

Yeah, I understand the difference between drilled and vented. The rotors that came off my car are both drilled and vented, they're fairly thick.  I don't really want to replace them with drilled rotors, I would prefer just slotted or even solid - but my primary issue is I do not know which application to order for.  I do, however want to make sure to get vented rotors.

 

As for the calipers, so you think I have the normal width S12+8 79-85 caliper?  The piston size is useful info, thank you!  I know they look different from some of the S12W pics I've seen, but I can't find many good pictures.

Edited by Domesticated

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This can be a bit confusing.

 

The  Toyota S12 + 8 caliper came in two versions:  solid and vented.  See pictures.

 

And then there is the  S12W caliper that only came in the vented version.

 

You can use either the S12 + 8 vented or the S12W calipers if you want vented brakes. The main difference is in the piston size.

 

Both vented versions of the Toyota calipers require the use of a 84-85 300zx non-turbo rotor

 

The non-vented  S12 + 8 caliper will work with the solid stock 240Z rotor only.

 

This may clear things up:  http://driven-daily.com/build/s30-toyota-brake-upgrades

 

Opinion:  If your car is a daily driver, the Toyota solid rotor version is all you need and it is cheaper. The Vented swap requires a spacer to line up the caliper with the rotor. Also, the larger Toyota  caliper may rub on your wheels which will require a spacer to move the wheel out. Don't forget that the Toyota calipers require a larger volume of fluid which means going to a larger 15/16" ZX master cylinder or a Wilwwood 1" master cylinder.  Some people say that the stock MC is fine, but some  don't  like the long pedal travel.

 

 

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This can be a bit confusing.

 

The  Toyota S12 + 8 caliper came in two versions:  solid and vented.  See pictures.

 

And then there is the  S12W caliper that only came in the vented version.

 

You can use either the S12 + 8 vented or the S12W calipers if you want vented brakes. The main difference is in the piston size.

 

Both vented versions of the Toyota calipers require the use of a 84-85 300zx non-turbo rotor

 

The non-vented  S12 + 8 caliper will work with the solid stock 240Z rotor only.

 

This may clear things up:  http://driven-daily.com/build/s30-toyota-brake-upgrades

 

Opinion:  If your car is a daily driver, the Toyota solid rotor version is all you need and it is cheaper. The Vented swap requires a spacer to line up the caliper with the rotor. Also, the larger Toyota  caliper may rub on your wheels which will require a spacer to move the wheel out. Don't forget that the Toyota calipers require a larger volume of fluid which means going to a larger 15/16" ZX master cylinder or a Wilwwood 1" master cylinder.  Some people say that the stock MC is fine, but some  don't  like the long pedal travel.

 

Ah, I didn't realize there were two versions of the standard 12+8 caliper! So there are actually three different s12 calipers... sheesh.  I will look more closely at what I have tomorrow and look at the machining on the bottom side to see if I can figure out which I have.  The rotors that are currently on my car certainly are vented, but they're not 84-85 300zx non-turbo rotors, and there are no spacers... so I don't know what they are.

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Posted (edited)

Post a picture of your rotor edge-on and a picture of the bottom of the caliper where the rotor goes.

 

 

Picture of Toyota S12W caliper and 84-85 300ZX non-turbo vented rotor on my 240Z:

 

 

post-178-0-50621400-1490842106_thumb.jpg

 

 

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Edited by Miles

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Post a picture of your rotor edge-on and a picture of the bottom of the caliper where the rotor goes.

 

 

Picture of Toyota S12W caliper and 84-85 300ZX non-turbo vented rotor on my 240Z:

 

 

attachicon.gifFront Caliper Toyota S12W.JPG

 

 

attachicon.gifDSCF0212.JPG

I'm a non-observant idiot.  My rotors that I thought were vented just have like a vent-looking slit on the outer edge, I never looked at them thoroughly enough to realize that they are in fact solid discs.  DOH

 

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My calipers are also clearly the narrow S12+8, based on the groove machined in the caliper in this pic:

 

20170330_221300_zpsw0huu9rn.jpg

 

So, I just need stock 70-73 front rotors and I'm 99.9% sure I need 280zx rear rotors.

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Posted (edited)

I will post some pictures tonight for clarification, thanks for your help.

 

The old/narrow S12 brakes don't have many good options for brake pads, thats for sure...

 

I have the S12 + 8 solid disk (front) and 240SX calipers (rear) with 1 in. Willwood MC and 280Z booster on my 240Z. I tried all of the popular performance street pads such as Porterfield and Hawk.  Even though they are advertised for "street performance" they lacked cold bite which is what you want for a street car when some kid runs out in front of you. For the last two years I have used Axxis Ultimates front and back. They have better cold bite than the "performance street pads" and get better with repeated stops.

 

As far as searching for pads I have found that searching by pad shape (every pad has an industry FMSI standard shape) works well:

 

 

 

 

 

89 240SX  FMSI Shape Codes

 

D230, D231, D272, D232, D464

 

 

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79 TOYOTA 4X4 PICKUP FMSI Shape Code

 

D137

 

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http://www.nitomainc.com/npsp3.php?masterno=BP252

 

Edited by Miles

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Cool, I'll look into that some more.  I searched real quick for D137 but didn't find much.  I will probably throw a cheap set of local autoparts store $25 ceramic pads on and see how it feels.  For the rear I already have a set of Hawk HPS pads, but with the awful front/rear proportioning I should be okay. I would really like to run HPS or HP+ on the front, I've used those pads on several other cars and they worked out well (from a 2100lb Miata, to a 3800lb Pontiac GTO, neither of which is known for its braking ability) but Hawk doesn't sell them from what I've been able to find.

 

I went to my local Advance Auto and got a stock s13 rear rotor.  The measurements seemed pretty darn close, so I thought I would try it.  But the rotor doesn't seem to sit in the right place in the caliper and with everything bolted up it all binds and you can't turn it at all.  I bolted the wheel and tire on and still couldn't budge it.  I thought maybe there was tension on the e-brake with the new pads and everything, so I adjusted that all the way out to where I had no tension on the e-brake, but still no difference.  Here are some pics of the rear brake setup, and comparison between the two rotors, as you can see the depth is different.

 

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Posted (edited)

Some of the rear disk conversion kits used the 84 300ZX rear rotors. 

 

Do a search on 240Z rear disk conversions to see if you can confirm which rear conversion kit you have as there are many kit configurations using Maxima calipers, 200SX, 240SX calipers, 280ZX calipers in combination with Maxima rotors, 240SX rotors or 300ZX rotors etc.  You may have the wrong rotor or an installation error.

 

Answers likely in: http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/39435-help-what-brake-options-are-available-for-s30-z-cars/

 

 

Note: The Maxima,  200SX  and  240SX calipers look very similar.

 

When fitting new pads in the 240SX/Maxima style  calipers you have to turn the piston all the way in to make room for the rotor. When the piston is all the way in,  turn it so the alignment pin on the pad slides into the groove (grove approx 12 o'clock). Otherwise the rotor will bind on the pads. You can rent the piston tool from most parts stores or use what you have, but the tool works better.

Edited by Miles

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Posted (edited)

If you go to Summit Racing and type "brake pads D137" into the search window it will list stock pads they sell for that pad type. Will work for Google searches for some performance pads too.

 

 

https://www.summitracing.com/search?SortBy=BestKeywordMatch&SortOrder=Ascending&keyword=brake%20pads%20D137

 

Note that the D137 pad were used on many Toyota models.

Edited by Miles

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Some of the rear disk conversion kits used the 84 300ZX rear rotors. 

 

Do a search on 240Z rear disk conversions to see if you can confirm which rear conversion kit you have as there are many kit configurations using Maxima calipers, 200SX, 240SX calipers, 280ZX calipers in combination with Maxima rotors, 240SX rotors or 300ZX rotors etc.  You may have the wrong rotor or an installation error.

 

Answers likely in: http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/39435-help-what-brake-options-are-available-for-s30-z-cars/

 

 

Note: The Maxima,  200SX  and  240SX calipers look very similar.

 

When fitting new pads in the 240SX/Maxima style  calipers you have to turn the piston all the way in to make room for the rotor. When the piston is all the way in,  turn it so the alignment pin on the pad slides into the groove (grove approx 12 o'clock). Otherwise the rotor will bind on the pads. You can rent the piston tool from most parts stores or use what you have, but the tool works better.

 

Sonofabitch! I knew I was missing something....

 

The pads that came off the rear were pretty new and I couldn't get the piston to go in any further so I thought was all the way retracted... I've never seen the turn-style piston.  Sheesh  So, I went to the auto parts store this afternoon and bought the tool for a 3/8-drive ratchet for $10, turned them in and everything went back together perfectly now, using the s13 rear rotor!

 

As for the D137, I had already checked summit because I can order on my work's wholesale account, and even searching by application (I used 85 Toyota 4Runner) I came up with all those same options.  Just basic Raybestos, Bendix, etc... nothing performance oriented.  But its all good, I will run cheap ceramic pads for now.  I know a Carbotech dealer that is going to try and find something for me to fit or retrofit on the fronts if I ever get into time attack or track days.  I think for the street and auto-x the regular pads will be fine. 

 

I ordered StopTech slotted front 240z rotors for the front of the car, maybe next time I need brakes I'll upgrade to the early 300zx rotors/spacers.

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I just bought front and rear pads from Carbotech.

 

Front : CT137  with AX6 pad material for the solid Toyota calipers  $141.00 

 

Rear:  CT272 with AX6 pad material for 89 240SX rear calipers  $131.00

 

AX6 is a street/autocross material. Has cold bite for the street, but makes noise and dust (don't care).

 

Carbotech can pre-treat the pads to minimize bed-in process. $20/set

 

Ask for the club discount.

 

Take about 3 -4 days for Carbotech to make the pads

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How are the brakes working out?

 

The brakes are working fine, but the front doesn't have much bite.  The commuter-car pads aren't going to cut it... I need to get those Carbotech pads.  Also dreaming of a dual reservoir setup with rear balance adjustment.

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I have had only good experiences with Carbotech pads and shoes. This winter I replaced the stock booster, MC and pedals with Wilwood pedals, MCs and new lines.

 

Took the car out on Saturday and it operated flawlessly.

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