MerloZ Posted May 5, 2017 Share Posted May 5, 2017 Hello again. My l28et is running very very rich and im sure of it. Spark plugs are black. I thought i ruined my o2 sensor so i go another one and AFR is still reading at 10. Fuel pressure is perfect. I have stock injectors however i have no resistors in the wires to them and each set of 3 injectors is connected to a 20 amp fuse. My fuel settings should be perfect according to lots of research on the forum. If anyone has used a ms2 on a nearly stock l28et please tell me if you used resistors or not and why. Ive read that the ms2 flyback board should compensate for this but ive also read that its only for 4 injectors?. Vacuum is at 14in/hg when it should be at 19. If i put my stock resistor block in the wiring will that affect anything badly even if its not the issue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewZed Posted May 6, 2017 Share Posted May 6, 2017 You should post your MS setting, and/or a screenshot of all settings, and readings from the meters, if you can. You'll get more better responses sooner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickenman Posted May 6, 2017 Share Posted May 6, 2017 Well.. we've found that the Tuner Studio VE Generator is buggy as hell. Most tuners recommend not to use it. Might be that Tuner Studio's PWM current limiting is buggy as well. Couldn't hurt to put the resistors back in and disable the PWM current limiting. Do post your .msq file though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggedgoods Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 Have you checked your intake piping and plenum for any debris? Rats nest? Old socks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softopz Posted May 10, 2017 Share Posted May 10, 2017 (edited) 20 amps for injectors is really high! Have you sorted your timing issues? is it idling good? Edited May 10, 2017 by softopz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickenman Posted May 10, 2017 Share Posted May 10, 2017 (edited) Been working with Morgen on this via remote tuning. Been making some progress. Have sorted out a lot of hardware and software issues. Aeromotive FPR fixed the excessive fuel pressure issue. Stock FPR and $15 E-Bay POS FPR could not handle pressure and volume from a Walpro 255 F/pump. Fuel pressure with Aeromotive #13129 unitis now at 37 psi with FPR hose disconnected and 26-27 psi with hose connected. Bang on factory specs. 1 issue solved.... 27 to go... Timing is now sorted. Good spark apparently. Idling decent, but with a lot of work Base Req-fuel has to be set extremely low. Blowing fuses was due to the dropping resistors had been removed and Low -Z injectors were pulling big amperage at a full 12 volts. PWM current limiting was not originally enabled. PWM current settings have now been enabled, tested and those are now set correctly. No longer any fuse blowing problems. MS Req-Fuel calculation is purposely set way rich by Tuner Studio. Unfortunately they don't make that information easy to find. VE table generator is next to useless. Req-Fuel can be out as much as 50%.. Recommended Req-Fuel was 12.0 ms at 100% VE, 14.7 stoich and zero boost. That's way to high . Excel PW calculators show it should be between 8.1 to 9.1.That is just simple Math. Apparently Tuner Studio does some sort of " Modern Math " where 2+ 2 = 9. Go figure. All mute, as Req-Fuel is just a multiplier for the VE table. You change the numbers to get a reasonable scale and injector PW. So basically it's like throwing Cow S**t at a barn door. Wing it and see what sticks. Very poorly written software... but that's what you get when Tuning software covers so many different ECU versions and firmware. There are still some issues. Engine won't warm up properly. Won't get past 145 F. Either thermostat is stuck open or GM temp sensor for ECU was installed in wrong port. It could be contacting the thermostat spring and jamming the stat open. I've had to lower the Auto Tune low coolant filter to 140F or Auto Tune won't even run. Not a big deal as I can manually tune VE table. But still an issue to be corrected. I've got it to idle fairly smoothly now. I can get it around 12.8 AFR at idle with a Vacuum reading of 19.5 in/hg. Batch fire usually likes around 13.5 at idle. So a tad rich, but I can't cut back down fueling any more. Req_Fuel is now down to 4.5 from a initial recommendation of 12.ms . And we still get an injector PW that is too low.... under 1.0ms Injector Pulse Width is at absolute minimum. Around .95 ms. Can't go any lower as injectors then go into non-linear mode and AFR goes unstable. PW should be at a minimum of 1.5 to 1.7 ms with the stock injectors ( yes they have been checked by Part numbers and are 260cc Turbo injectors ). So minimum injector PW and minimum fueling, and it;s still too bloody rich. ASE and WUE have been scaled down and are confirmed as switching off. BTW, brand spanking new O2 sensor, properly calibrated. And I can tell it's rich by Tuning for Rich Best idle and Lean best idle with the PW reading, Idle speed and Vacuum readings. Engine wants less fuel at idle... but ECU won't co-operate. With PW current limiting the Dead time has to be decrease compared to dropping resistors. .7ms with PWM current limit is just right any higher or lower and injectors become unstable. Have tested the other settings under PWM as well, and the base settings are optimized. Morgen is going to re-install the dropping resistors and install a new thermostat. I don't think that will solve the issue. I have used this same basic Tune with a 9.5 ms Req-Fuel and appropriate VE tables on BaggedGoods car. Same injectors, Same PWM current limiting but larger Dead Time of 1.2ms. It' seems to be running fine with only minor tweaking to idle cell values. Cruise values are 14.5 AFR and car is running good. Why is Derek's car running fine at 9.5 Req-Fuel... A reasonable number and yet Morgen's car is at 4.5 ms Req_fuel and still rich? Derek's car also is running at higher PW's . Waiting for the final number when he send his Data Logs to me. But I think it was around 1.3 to 1.5ms. Right in the ballpark. Edit: Morgen's car goes absolutely PIG Rich at 1.2ms Dead Time and with PWM enabled. ... somewhere in this area is where I believe the real problem lays. Garbage in = Garbage out. I've come to two possible conclusions with Morgen's car. 1: Stock injectors 260 cc Turbo injectors have been been modified and are flowing way higher than they should be. Like 400+ cc Unlikley but possible. Part numbers on injector are A46-00 which equals 260cc Turbo injectors. 2: There is a build mistake somewhere in the board. It's a Version 3.0 assemble it by yourself board. Could be as simple as a cold solder joint or a wrong value resistor. Who knows. Certainly not me from 3,000 miles away. . . This seems to be the logical conclusion. Ultimately, I believe that the board is going to have to go back to DIY and have them go over it mm by mm. There is some inherent error in what the ECU is measuring and outputting on the Fuel side.... 3: This ECU doesn't like us... Need to get VooDoo doctor... Really a tough Nut to crack.. Edited May 10, 2017 by Chickenman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madkaw Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 This is why I paid the money for the latest and greatest 3.57 FULLY ASSEMBLED board . I didn't want to be chasing my tail over a bad solder. Not sure how you can fix issues with a cold engine , that should be #1 priority . I'd also say that these types of problems can steer people away from MS though it might not have much to do with MS except that it was applied wrong . Cudos to you Richard for taking so much time to help like this . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickenman Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 ^ I agree 100% The best thing about MS is that you can build it yourself. The worst thing about MS is that you can build it yourself People vastly over estimate their ability to assemble electronic components. A complex project like an ECU is not the place to be learning precision electronics soldering skills and small component assembly. Cold engine issue seems to have developed recently, because when I first started helping Morgen, it would get up to around 160 to 170. But engine was so bloody rich that didn't really matter. AFR's were constantly in the 7.8 to 7.9 range. Even with WUE turned off. At least now the plugs aren't coming out like wet lumps of coal. It has been a struggle..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickenman Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 I should say that Tuner Studio is good for what it is. A learning tool for tuning home built ECU's. Biggest disappointment is the VE generator. At $60 for the paid version, I would expect it to be a bit more accurate. The free version is worth the money though..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softopz Posted May 13, 2017 Share Posted May 13, 2017 Isn't he still running VR input? Switchback to Optical and make sure he has that resistor at #24 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softopz Posted May 13, 2017 Share Posted May 13, 2017 Big thanks to chickenman for helping him and others! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickenman Posted May 13, 2017 Share Posted May 13, 2017 (edited) Isn't he still running VR input? Switchback to Optical and make sure he has that resistor at #24 Thanks, but we don't think there is any problem with ignition. Nice fat spark, good sync. Timing does what it should and it can fire lumps of wet coal. We will check that though. Faulty injectors or faulty ECU are what we're concentrating on now. Injectors are highly suspect.... used and I just found out that they were never tested or cleaned. Wouldn't surprsie me if both injectors and ECU have faults. Testing and cleaning injectors is next on the list.... Edited May 13, 2017 by Chickenman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickenman Posted May 15, 2017 Share Posted May 15, 2017 (edited) Success!! Dropping resistors had been removed and I suggested they be put back in. Morgen did that this weekend and flashed my latest Tune . Bazinga!! Idles lean and clean at 14.3 right off the bat. That's with my 9.5ms Req-Fuel Tune , which I worked out using my HalTech PW calculator. He's gonna take it out for a drive and see how she goes. Should be pretty decent now. I've never been a big fan of removing dropping resistors. Changes too many variables. PWM should have been able to compensate, but suggested values were off. We did make some significant changes to the PWM settings, but obviously not enough. Finally some good news. Interesting the MS in their Hardware manual, hints around that Dropping resistors are not necessarily a bad thing.... Edit: Just went back and looked at an earlier post of mine ( #3 ) ...LOL Well.. we've found that the Tuner Studio VE Generator is buggy as hell. Most tuners recommend not to use it. Might be that Tuner Studio's PWM current limiting is buggy as well. Couldn't hurt to put the resistors back in and disable the PWM current limiting. Do post your .msq file though. Edited May 15, 2017 by Chickenman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuD 91gt Posted May 15, 2017 Share Posted May 15, 2017 Great to hear its running. Youve got me worried now with my supra injectors relying on thr PWM in MS2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickenman Posted May 15, 2017 Share Posted May 15, 2017 Which Supra injectors do you have? You can get them in both High and Low impedance. I have the 23250-70040 which are 310cc Low-z ( 2.8 ohms ) . Yellow tops with Nippon Denso style connectors. There are also Green Tops which are 315cc and High-Z. These are the Normally aspirated injectors. There are probably settings in TS that are correct. It's just that the recommended settings from MS manual's didn't work. Nor did the settings from the Hybrid Z article from 2007. Some of the Toyota forums may have more info on the correct settings to use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuD 91gt Posted May 15, 2017 Share Posted May 15, 2017 440cc from the early turbo supra. Low Z Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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