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trackzpeed

Drive shaft shop CV conversion doesn't fit!

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That has been addressed twice by DSS with machined spacers the first was wrong and the second correct.  The point of contact is the shoulder / dust cap..... it is too wide and 3mm too tall and contacts the outside edge of the upright housing.  This was supposed to machined down to spec of OEM to match the OEM axle I sent them on the 3rd attempt however it was not done properly and remains a point of contact. I spoke with DSS yesterday along with multiple emailed pictures and an offer to send them an upright and another axle for reference..... they will get back to me today on how to approach this yet again.  In the mean time, checkered Joe has reached out to me (great guy by the way) and has an alternate solution for me if DSS can’t or won’t fix the problem and returns my money. I will know more later today.  I will admit that lee at DSS was very apologetic and seems willing to fix the problem..... I’m just tired of doing this repeatedly and really want my car back.  My race this weekend is obviously a bust.  Jim 

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Well, it's more clear now.  If you were telling them "hey, the dust shield is interfering with the casting and needs to be of smaller diameter and lower thickness" that's a lot different than just telling them "it's binding".  The first gives them specific direction, the second is a riddle that they have to solve.

 

My basic point is that clear communications will help them help you.  Plus it helps people out here understand what the problem really is.  You made it sound like they were completely incompetent, and made a part that wasn't even close to functional.

 

A guy with a file could relieve that dust cap problem, if he really needed to.  I could.  How important is the race?

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Richard.... They have not responded yet.  Ill let you know.

NewZed:  with all do respect you have absolutely know idea the depth of conversation I have had with them and the extent of the problem.   You cannot file the dust cap down and make this work, that's is a completely ignorant statement! This is a crappy design and machining problem, a fact that has been supported by other vendors that are highly respected in the Z community that  have reached out to me in private in order to help me find a fix.  You seem to think I'm some kind of dumbass that can't turn a wrench.  I do not have the time to relay every communication I've had with them (DSS) to the hybrid community, just a general overview. Please quit trying to read between the lines.   

Respectfully, Jim

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11 minutes ago, trackzpeed said:

You cannot file the dust cap down and make this work, that's is a completely ignorant statement!

 

  You seem to think I'm some kind of dumbass that can't turn a wrench. 

 

Respectfully, Jim

 

I responded to what you communicated in your writing.  The ignorance is yours.  You said the dust cap, or ridge in this case, contacted the strut casting.  Therefore, if it is removed it cannot contact it anymore.  Because it's not there anymore.  Pretty simple and basic.  If that is not the case, then we're stuck with your poor communication.

 

You seem like one of those nightmare customers.  Poor communication, maybe due to a lack of understanding, then throwing insults when people question your lack of knowledge or ability.

 

Good luck.

 

 

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Wow newzed, relax man.. .I've been following this for a whIle cause I've had similar issues before. I don't see what your big stink is all about. I'm sure if he wasn't communicating properly then calling them and complaining, DSS would tell him they have done all they can. Instead of apologizing and wanting to fix it "again"....just saying I think trackzpeed seems knowledgeable. Not like he has ever asked if it was hard to make a z all-wheel drive? 🙄

 

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On 11/9/2017 at 6:12 PM, trackzpeed said:

I have come to realize that DSS stands for Drive Shit Shop not Drive Shaft Shop. 

 

Here's where the stink got big.

 

I cleared up more about his problem in a few posts than he did in the whole thread.  He's blowing up a simple problem in to a huge deal.  He should have been able to tell them exactly what was wrong after the first fitting.  Take a few measurements before putting it all back together and confirming 'binding".  Take some responsibility for part of the problem.  

 

To screw up the basics of working with a machine shop, then call me "ignorant' is just too much.  This is very basic Machine Shop 101 stuff.  Child's play, if they had machine shop classes in grade school.  I was just taking the other side to see what's what, but TZS showed what's happening with the "ignorant' comment.

 

If I was DSS I'd give him his money back and say good riddance.  Even if they get it right he'll probably screw something up and blame them for it.

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With all do respect newzed you have contrbuted nothing new to the solution of the problem that I had not already addressed many weeks back with DSS.  I may not be using terms that agree with you.... I said “bind and won’t turn” and you prefer “won’t spin”. Your suggestion of filing off a dust cap is impossible  as we are talking about solid billet machined parts that are meant to be to spec.  You just can’t take a file to this stuff and call it good and I don’t own a lathe.  I purchased these parts at great cost per DSS selling them as bolt on and in regularly  use on many S30 Z’s. They have since admitted that they have NEVER had this stub axle on 240Z and admitted that there stub axle was previously copied off of an unknown Datsun stub axle they were told was an S30.  I have supplied them all of the measurements using my mics and calipers for the risers so the bearing would fit per spec.  Unfortunately, the first riser was not machined to measurements I provided so they did them a second time, this time per my measurements and they are perfect.  Great, however the billet machined shoulder then cam into contact with the housing and again would not spin.  Soooooo I sent them a stock 240Z OEM stub axle along with their axles with the understanding that DSS would

machine into the billet stub axle

the proper recess and width allowing the stub axle to fit as OEM with the stock stamped dust cap.  DSS sent the axles back to me with shoulder machined down but without the necessary recess.  I called them concerned they still would not fit however, per their instructions, bolted them back up as they were “within .005 tolerance of OEM”. I bolted them back up and they continue to press against the housing and will not spin.  I called DSS  with the bad news and they said “sorry, we didn’t think the recess was that important”. My response was “why didn’t you just machine the axle to match the OEM one I sent”? There Response- “Im not sure i need to talk to the machine shop”.  As of this afternoon, DSS has requested I send it all back one more time and they will make it right.  I’m going to give them that opportunity again as I am to far into this to just turn back.  So, after month of emails, pictures, and sourcing hardware to fit (since the supplied hardware hits the differential on the adapter side of this conversion) I am again hoping that DSS machines these stub axles to OEM spec. Keep in mind, this is advertised as a “bolt in no modification kit”.  Im really not offended that I’m not making sense to you.  I’m offended and ticked off that I was sold a product that has never actually been bolted on to a 240Z and that I have been patiently (admittedly sometimes not so) trying to help them produce a useable product from the other side of the U.S with phone calls emails and pictures. The final straw is sending them an OEM axle with the instructions “make a copy of this” and it still came back machined wrong. Every point you have made regarding bearings and risers and clearance I agree with fully and in fact I communicated to them to fix those issues as they arose.  It’s been a long process. I’m sorry I can’t satisfy your deepest need for every piece of communication and I honestly can’t tell you why they keep getting it wrong.   Funny thing is, they can’t explain it either, but they sure as heck are not blaming me. Lee thanked me for my patience with all of DSS mistakes. Getting into a war of words is not my bag.  I’m bummed out this crap is clogging up the forum.  I apologize if I offended you. I’m really just a hard working guy that loves Z’s and gearhead culture in general. I’ve been building and racing for  most of my 50 years of life (first kart and motorcycle age 5) and building cars in my garage is my therapy..... supposed to be fun. Given all my frustration with this purchase, i just needed a place to vent and I really want others to avoid the same.   So hearing that I’m a whining complainer that doesn’t know what the hell he is saying and is incompetent to turn a wrench hits where it hurts to be perfectly honest.  Agree to disagree is cool

with me, time to let this squabble go. 

With respect, Jim 

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UPDATE:  DSS is asking for the stub axles back again for one more try.  Sending them back today.  As frustrating as this has been, I will at least give DSS credit for repeatedly trying to make it right.  Side note:  the CV axles appear to be too short as well........ With all of the drama surrounding this conversion I measured every single part  yesterday and the axle bar is 1 inch too short.  DSS asked me to bolt up the stubs when they arrive and take measurements...... They will replace the axle bar once they know the stubs fit properly.  Just another step to take the half shaft cv axles back apart and send them back for correction.   As long as I'm back racing by march-april I'm good to go.  Thanks to the community and vendors that have reached out in private  and forum for all the help and support.  Jim

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TrackZpeed, sorry to hear about your problems with your CV axle kit. And sorry for the people on here, who take sides with the vendor to the point of insulting your ability. Much like yourself, I am an old gearhead wrench spinner, and If they only knew what I know about these  "Porsche 930 style" kits, they wouldn't be on the vendor's side.  But please indulge me for a moment, and give me some info.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       What is the OAL of the axle shaft? 16.250, or 15.625? Is it silver zinc plated? or powder coated? And if so, what color?                                                                                                                                Did the CV joints come in a box wrapped in a greasy brown paper? Does the box reveal where they were made? Is there a 9 digit number on the box or part itself? Does it start with a 931 or a 211?     JMO, for $2600, they should practically install themselves.                                                                                                                                                                                                                    

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The overall length to mounting surface is 14.25 full compressed and 16 fully extended.  Axle bar is a black powder coat. They came preassembled 108 mm 930 “style”. FWIW I believe the oal length is going to be 1” to short..... per DSS instructions, once they return my wheel stub axles (hopefully with proper machining of all surfaces per OEM axle I sent them) I need to bolt up the stubs and take measurements so they can adjust the length of the axle bar as necessary.  

Hope that helps.  Still waiting for parts to return at this time. 

Jim.  

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Well at least you didn’t get the silver , made in Taiwan shafts that many other vendors sell. 

The Cv joints are stock VW bus.  They already come with heat treated internals but the vendors like to take credit for it. They are plenty strong enough for the task. Just sad that the vendors can’t be honest about what they are selling, and hide behind the Porsche 930 “style” description.

The axles are most likely a VW bus trans to a beetle chassis conversion axle(15.625). Silver zinc is cheap EMPI crap. Powder  coated white or red is usually Sway Away. Made in USA. Black I’m not sure but they look to be a stout piece. I would like to find the source of those. The MM stuff looks really good, but way too rich for this old tight ass. I will be buying my pieces separately and making the rest myself. Good luck.

BTW the $1000 kits that many sell, can be bought on EBay for $480 without the adapters.

 

 

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Hi Guys, there is big differances with CVs.  If parts wern't heat treated they would self destruct in no time. My kit is priced the way it is as I only use good quality parts.

This is the CVs I use in my kit.

http://www.rcvperformance.com/product-details.aspx?sku=301174M-28M

As you can see they are $265.00 each that's almost a 1/3 of the cost of my kit.

http://www.modern-motorsports.com/datsun-240z-280z-complete-cv-axle-conversion.html

 

Joe

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Thank you for the clarification. This topic has bothered me for a long time, and this discussion needs to be had. Being an old VW guy since the 70's, as soon as I saw the $1000 kit that is offered by some, I recognized it. As I said, your stuff looks very nice,  actually the only kit I would consider if I had the $$$. I might be able to pull the trigger on a pair of stubs, someday. The main reason people step up to the real 930 cv's, is because they will survive with more angle than the bus cv. Not something we would be concerned with. Nothing wrong with a bus cv. But I wish people would call it what it is.

 

Edited by Eric JB

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Frustration aside, I think that last couple posts were very informative trackszspeed. In the beginning of the thread there seemed to be a lot of anger and name calling, warranted for sure given the product description and your experience, but kind of made it hard to determine exactly what the problem was.

 

Playing devil's advocate, clearing up the problem and using the correct term does help visualize the problem. Bind would make me think that the diameter or something grew, binding the axle, finding out it was spaced incorrectly lets me know that there was a problem in spacing, meaning the clamping force prevented the axle from spinning. I remember getting called out for using pipe instead of tube, to a layman something inconsequential, but when talking about suspension and load making sure the clarification is there is of real importance.

 

An LPT that was pointed out to me was to be modest with using years of experience as proof. Usually a question is raised when something seems incorrect, not because of a doubt of experience. A good analysis will withstand scrutiny regardless of the age or experience of the analyzer. Anecdotally it reminds me of the police officer who state based off 11 years of training on narcotics that the material found in the car was definitely a narcotic and sent a man to jail, only to find out it was the glaze off of a donut. Absolutely destroys all credibility of how those years were spent. Based off of an analysis of the material we found that the composition is mostly sucrose and water is a perfectly sound statement. No need for experience to weigh in.

 

I digress, there was some concern with how DSS axles were listed in the beginning I recall. Seemed almost too good and too fast and too vague to be true. Unfortunate as it is, I am thankful that you took the plunge here, and hopefully they will be another option on the market for us. 

 

Regarding similar adapters, on the 510 forums there are a couple spread sheets of how to assemble axles using adequate material as Eric suggests. The adapters are also available from a user that has something to do with Mountain Dew for a very affordable fee. 

http://www.the510realm.com/viewtopic.php?t=10917

Edited by seattlejester

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Here is an OE bus joint. notice that it is heat treated. http://www.autohausaz.com/search/product.aspx?sid=en0wyf45idbrq145embfxj45&[email protected]&[email protected], CAMP, TRANSPORT &year=1971&[email protected] Parts&[email protected] Joint                                                                                                                                                                                                 And here is an OE Porsche 930 (911 turbo) joint. Also, heat treated.http://www.autohausaz.com/search/product.aspx?sid=en0wyf45idbrq145embfxj45&[email protected]&[email protected] TURBO&year=1981&[email protected] Parts&[email protected] Joint                                                               Also notice how much thicker the outer body of the 930 is than the bus. The Bus can take 17 degrees of constant angle, and 19 intermittently. The 930 joint can take 19 degrees constant, and 21 intermittently. That is why they are preferred by the off road guys.  

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Well it finally all fits!  Car is back together and waiting for a performance alignment with new TTT LCA's.  It took DSS 4 attempts to get the stub axles machined to OEM spec but they finally got it done. Personally, I would use checkered flag racing if I did it again, but I will give Lee at DSS a lot of credit for contuniually working to find a fix.   Hopefully DSS will now have the proper specs for future buyers to avoid all the hassles I went through.  I owe the HBZ community an apology for using the forum to vent my frustrations..... I was never looking for technical "help", because the only fix had to come from DSS.  Just more of a buyer beware that was a little more colorful than intended.  Anyway, I appreciate all the input, and I hope others can avoid this expensive frustration in the future.   Jim 

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Ditto.  Sure this has been an unbelievably frustrating experience for you; but super glad to hear it finally worked out!!  I know I've learned a lot just from this thread.

Edited by jhm

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