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AlbatrossCafe

T3/T4 Turbo that spools like stock?

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On 10/5/2018 at 1:46 PM, AlbatrossCafe said:

I'm in exactly $5,521.01 just for engine/exhaust mods at the moment 😓 haha so it's not that i don't mind spending a bit, but....

 

Here is my predicament. I could spend $700 and get a reliable Garrett T3/T4 or non SX Borg Warner that will get me to my power goals. I could also spend $1600 and get a fancy new Garrett with Ball bearings, stainless polish, etc. that will also get me to my power goals. But am I, as a novice mechanic and someone with almost no sports car experience, gonna notice a $900 performance difference between the two? Probably not. Newer turbos are nice, but how those translate to real-world performance (e.g. spooling to full boost takes 1.6 seconds vs. 1.3 seconds) is probably something that insignificant to me as an amateur. I'd rather take that $900 and repair rust on my front fenders. I think so, anyways.... ;)

 

From another thread, I think I found something that answers my original question...

 

 

I also just learned of these guys: http://gpopshop.com/services/rebuilding/

I think I am gonna use their rebuild/upgrade services to keep it simple. That way I can keep my MSA downpipe which I just put on like 3 weeks ago :) Keepin it simple & "OEM" ish. And it is within a reasonable budget!

 

The cost of rebuild and upgrade is not insignificant. I believe I was quoted somewhere around $695 before shipping by gpopshop to upgrade the stock 280zx T3 to T3/T04E 50 trim before some other options like ceramic coating, upgraded bearings, etc. but ditched that idea after removing the OEM wastegate housing and finding my turbine side had some significant cracks. You're basically in new turbo territory at that price point. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Dat73z said:

 

The cost of rebuild and upgrade is not insignificant. I believe I was quoted somewhere around $695 before shipping by gpopshop to upgrade the stock 280zx T3 to T3/T04E 50 trim before some other options like ceramic coating, upgraded bearings, etc. but ditched that idea after removing the OEM wastegate housing and finding my turbine side had some significant cracks. You're basically in new turbo territory at that price point. 

 

Ok, good to know. Glad you have checked on this beforehand. I sent them an email just in case. So basically I can rebuild or just get this: http://www.himni-racing.com/turbochargers/garrett-t-series-journal-bearing/garrett-t3-t04e-stage-iii-turbo-50-trim-450-hp

 

And end up with a similar price point, but one is new and the other isn't. TBH I was considering the rebuild because I was just worried about getting a fake chinese-Garrett or something haha...

Edited by AlbatrossCafe

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5 minutes ago, AlbatrossCafe said:

 

Ok, good to know. Glad you have checked on this beforehand. I sent them an email just in case. So basically I can rebuild or just get this: http://www.himni-racing.com/turbochargers/garrett-t-series-journal-bearing/garrett-t3-t04e-stage-iii-turbo-50-trim-450-hp

 

And end up with a similar price point, but one is new and the other isn't. TBH I was considering the rebuild because I was just worried about getting a fake chinese-Garrett or something haha...

 

Going with a new turbo sounds like the right move for the price. You'll need to figure out your wastegate situation, but there are options. 

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True, you won't really notice if you limit yourself in your projected ball park. You aren't asking a ton from the turbos you are looking at for your power goals. Now the question is when you do ask a lot from it how will it behave. Like the 57 trim you are looking at is a 7566 by common nomenclature. A bw is s200sx-e is a 7670. Similar right? One can support 475hp according to some sites. In my research I've seen real world 420whp at 16lbs and that is reving the nuts off the turbo at 130k+ RPM. The bw will do that at 100k RPM and the max power it will support is 650hp. So same size frame, newer feature you are getting almost 30% more out of it. That translates to lower turbine rpm, which equates to lower charge air temp, which leads to denser air charge, which leads to lower IAT, which leads to higher VE, which leads to more fuel, which leads to even more cooling, which leads to higher VE, which leads to more power, extracted, and so on so on. Turbo will last longer, charge air will be cooler, power will be felt sooner, VE will be higher, thus more fuel, more power, more cooling, more exhaust, more turbine pressure, etc etc. 

 

If you are playing down low though you are probably right, you won't really notice unless someone has a very similar setup as you and they pull away, build boost sooner, or what not. Air might be warmer, you may need a psi or more to compensate, your IAT may be higher, your VE will be lower, but still you can keep compensating with higher boost to a point where something doesn't work.

 

For me it was a question of fitment. Frankly a borg warner wouldn't even fit with the manifold that I had, so I was looking at the same turbos on the same website as you are. From my research Himni is a reputable vendor usually focused on rotaries and they have some of the best prices. I entertained ebay turbos, even tried to justify the ball bearing ones, but that seemed silly. Then I found AGP that had a hilariously perfect hotside for me. One they didn't even know if it would fit the newly introduced SX-E line. When I called and asked the guy said no at first then walked up grabbed one and opened a supercore and found that it would indeed fit. Then I had a perfect sized open hotside that would leave me the smallest of room, but room none the less. So for $100 more than what a T3/T04E hybrid was going to cost me I was going to get the best tech for my budget on almost what felt to me was a bespoke hotside. It also helped to know that my order was I think a month or so out, because they were getting these by the pallet and couldn't keep them in stock because they were selling so fast.

 

Also I sound like a huge fan boy because I am. I mean it sucks, but if someone has a knock off that performs just as good as the "real thing" for a 1/3 of the price it would be foolish not to consider it. Just look at the sheer number of those available on ebay and amazon for the T3/T04E. The crazy thing is they make good power, and some for a bit more come with ball bearings and anti-surge porting, some even have warranties that put the factory ones to shame! So better for less, hard to beat, but when something is in almost a class of its own specification, size, and feature wise at a price that is not unreasonable for the features, I'll happily spend my money there. My friend has the earlier version the non E variant, for $50-100 more I could get a freaking billet wheel, improved casting, anti-surge porting, pre drilled pressure port, better bearing. I've been in his car and it was disturbingly quick like the most violent 330hp I have ever felt when we couldn't get the boost solenoid to open correctly. To have a turbo that was going to be that much better, no question at that point. 

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Posted (edited)

Wow @seattlejester sounds like you obsess over hobbies like this even more than I do... haha. Get that fuel pump back in already and convince me otherwise! It helps when I can actually see something installed/in action.

 

On 10/8/2018 at 8:49 AM, Dat73z said:

 

The cost of rebuild and upgrade is not insignificant. I believe I was quoted somewhere around $695 before shipping by gpopshop to upgrade the stock 280zx T3 to T3/T04E 50 trim before some other options like ceramic coating, upgraded bearings, etc. but ditched that idea after removing the OEM wastegate housing and finding my turbine side had some significant cracks. You're basically in new turbo territory at that price point. 

 

FYI, here is Gpop's response in case you or anyone else were interested. They quote $895 for compressor upgrade and rebuild where they use a t4 .50 trim wheel inside of the stock compressor housing. That would allow me to continue to use my MSA downpipe and internal wastegate, and it would be a direct fit (no spacer off intake manifold), but I'm not sure how easily that would get me to 300HP?

 

Quote

We have built many of these turbos over the years and would be glad to help you. The good news is that these turbos stock come with the .63 A/R turbine housing. In most cases we use both stock housings the compressor (aluminum side) and turbine, machine them for the 50 trim compressor wheel and stage 3 turbine wheel. Then finish it off with a complete HP 360 rebuild and you have a rock solid turbo that is 100% bolt on. The price for doing this based on a good core being provided would be $895 + return shipping

 

Edited by AlbatrossCafe

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Yeah, that might sound like a good chunk of money for "only" a custom t3/t4 hybrid, but in the grand scheme that's money well spent and not a bad way to go. I'd also let Gpop know that you only care about keeping the turbine housing. If it's cheaper to use a whole T4 compressor side, then that's fine. That's assuming you're going to be running an intercooler and not the stock J-pipe. No sense in keeping the stock compressor housing unless it's a zero cost difference.

 

That combo should make it to 300hp just fine though. I wouldn't expect to be able to push it worlds beyond that, but if you get hungry for more power then you can always sell it at a a mild loss once you're ready for a whole new turbo+dp setup.

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They are running it through the gauntlet to see what went wrong with it, so hopefully soon.

 

I wouldn't say obsessive as well informed, or at least curious. Lots of people ask about good turbos or turbo recommendations, and you will find some recommend based purely on peak numbers. Characteristics are harder to find out. I had a lot of trouble figuring it out and I asked a friend about it, he gave me the low down and taught me how to look at compressor maps. Once you can read those you can pull the numbers off of the maps. He spec'd his turbo for his motor and it makes too much power almost too quickly. That is the best type of problem to have, so I wanted a piece of that. Looking at the maps I ended up back to the same turbo. I had a lot of issues with my setup, but once everything was working, it is a ridiculous benchmark point one you can compare lots of things to. That is really all bench racing though, it is the application that really speaks to you.

 

If your goals are at that point, and you want to maintain the money you have into the dump, then you have to remember to factor that into the price of the turbo as a "savings." Granted if you had a flange and a u-bend, dump pipes are one of the easiest things to make. I just redid mine to clean my new transmission, cost me $30 for the pipe. 

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19 hours ago, Gollum said:

Yeah, that might sound like a good chunk of money for "only" a custom t3/t4 hybrid, but in the grand scheme that's money well spent and not a bad way to go. I'd also let Gpop know that you only care about keeping the turbine housing. If it's cheaper to use a whole T4 compressor side, then that's fine. That's assuming you're going to be running an intercooler and not the stock J-pipe. No sense in keeping the stock compressor housing unless it's a zero cost difference.

 

I According to Gpop, a new housing would be an additional $100-$250 and they commented:

 

Quote

Realistically you should be able to get 375hp out of the stock housing, the compressor housing really does not make that much of a difference in the overall scheme of things.

 

Edited by AlbatrossCafe

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Ahh, well if it's MORE money to get a difference housing then that's fine. I was thinking they'd be doing machining on the stock housing, the labor of which would far outweigh a new chunk of as-delivered aluminum out front. And they're right, the front compressor WHEEL is really where the meat and potatoes is, and why the stock T3 starts hitting a brick wall long before 300whp arrives.

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