Jersey Posted September 14, 2003 Share Posted September 14, 2003 No, i haven't really got my hands on the '83 yet. I was getting my Z prepped for the track last night so all my free time was taken up by that. This week, i'll have him come up and i'll dig into it. Just sounds kinda like the same problem you're having. When you said intake, i thought you meant intake manifold, not the boot (intake) between the AFM and T3, that's why i mentioned about positive pressure. You are correct about the way you said it...there never will be boost pressure present in the AFM to T3 boot, just blow-off from the BOV, which will get sucked up by the T3. If you do uncork the crankcase breather, I wouldn't drive it and create positive manifold pressure (boost) unless you put a pcv inline because you will surely build CC pressure that way. I'm doing the best i can and if my thoughts/suggestions seem way out of line, i'm just trying to think of anything all the way here in NJ. Who knows, maybe this will spark someone else's thoughts and you'll find a solution. I wouldn't wory about the line going from the top of the valve cover to the boot between the AFM and T3. As long as it's good, i don't think this would create any kind of problem. Question...why did you have the PCV port on the botom of the intake manifold welded shut? Just curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted September 14, 2003 Share Posted September 14, 2003 when I had the head at the machine shop I decided I wanted to do like some of the other guys on here and swap to the '75 280 intake manifold, to clean up the engine bay and get rid of all the valves and hoses from the stock turbo manifold that were never functioning to begin with (I mean to say, from the point I had the engine put in they were never working... none of them were even hooked up). The problem with the '75 manifold is it places the PCV right above the turbo where it connects to the J-pipe... there just isn't room there for it. I had considered getting a hole tapped on the manifold close to where it goes on the turbo manifold, but alas... always short on the $$$, so I let it go for the time being. Depending on how things go with the engine it is my intention to hook the PCV system back up proper. I tried as you suggested and let the car run with the oil cap off today... and found out two things. 1) running the motor like this has absolutely no effect on the amount of smoke coming out of the engine, and 2) the engine will now start smoking heavily if it sits and idles for more than a minute or two. Before, it could idle for extended periods w/o smoking, but would then smoke when you revved the engine. Now if it just idles after a couple minutes it will start smoking, and even if I rev the engine and let go a couple times or rev it and hold it it doesn't seem to want to clear up. So, whatever the problem is, it's getting worse. I'll pull the spark plugs out again maybe tommorow and see if still all 6 have oil on them, I also am curious to pull the J-pipe again and see if the oil film in there has built up again or gotten any worse. Waitin for word from Tim240z as he said he had a turbo he'd be willing to loan me just to see if it helped and therefore proves the turbo as the culprit, if not I guess he's gonna let me bring the car to his house and help me take the head back off and see what we can see. As it stands right now I'm not going to drive it anymore unless absolutely necessary... the exhaust smell is killing me, the starter is getting worse and worse and half the time it barely will crank the motor over then if I wait a minute it will crank just fine, and now possibly the alternator is going bad.. all the lights in and outside the car keep getting more and more dim... so driving the thing is just getting more and more upsetting. Man when it rains it really pours..... but HEY my tach seems to have fixed itself! And I put in a 180 degree thermostat today so no more trouble with the car not wanting to warm up... the needle stays solid at about 5/8 of the way up now... kinda concerns me because when it's hotter out it get's up to 2/3 or even a little higher... I'd like to test it somehow and see just how accurate it really is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cygnusx1 Posted September 14, 2003 Share Posted September 14, 2003 IMHO bastaad525: Easiest and maybe cheapest way out.....and into a good running 240ZTurbo. Part out your N/A motor and your current Turbo motor. This will allow you to recoup some cash. Start shopping for a RUNNING and COMPLETE 81-83 ZXTurbo (5 speed or automatic). They can be very CHEAP and still run great. Drive it, buy it. Document all the connections and wires in the running ZX Turbo and put the whole system (motor and wiring) into the 240 exactly like it was in the ZX. NO MODS untill it runs as good as it did in the ZX. I know its a whole new project but at this point...... Good Luck Dave C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Afshin Posted September 14, 2003 Share Posted September 14, 2003 Hi Bastaad. In a N/A car when vale seals go bad the car makes more smoke when you start it (as I explained previously) and when the car is idling for a few minutes( I can't remember the exact reason for this, but I was told by outstanding master mechanic). In a turbo car it will additionally smoke under boost because of the higher pressure causing more oil to leak. To answer your previous question, when under boost there is more pressure in each cylinder Only when the intake valve is open (so during that cycle more oil does not leak) but the pressure under the valve cover will be constantly elevated causing more oil to leak. What I'm trying to say is that the symptoms are Classic for bad valve seals, the problem happened after you rebuilt the head and initially the spark plugs were soaked with oil and the turbo pipe was clean. This is the valve seals, why spend the time swapping turbo's which does not cause smoking at start up or after idling (if it's the turbo then it will smoke more when driving without boost than at idle). Each time you look at something that's not the main problem, you waist time and effort resulting in more frustration. You need to be more systematic by which I mean first address the most significant problem. Why play with the TPS or clamping the fuel return line and turn the boost up to 13 when the car is leaking oil and running like shit, you will only do more damage and then complain that everything goes wrong. I'm sorry if I'm coming down hard on you, but I get the feeling that you keep working sub optimally on multiple problems instead off focusing 100% on the main one (maybe I'm wrong). Please check the compression; it helps all many of us think about the problem more clearly. Also did you change the oil? if not buy now it is so contaminated with fuel (if oil leaks in then usually fuel leak out as well) and thinned out that it would smoke in any car and risk mechanical failure to the engine and turbo. Off course I could be wrong, (since it happens often enough) but you still need to tackle it in the most logical way. there was oil on all 6 plugs when the pipe was clean, it happened the second after you put the rebuilt head on, and the pattern of smoking is consistent with faulty valve seals. Boy, am I grumpy this morning I guess I will go have my coffee now (before I sound like even a bigger jerk, if possible). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted September 14, 2003 Share Posted September 14, 2003 whoa whoa whoa... okay I am trying to go about this systematically. The only reason I am leaning away from the valve seals is because I know for a fact that he used the new ones I gave him and I know they appear to be installed correctly. Trust me I would love nothing more than for it to be the valve seals as this is about as cheap a fix as there is for this problem. I haven't changed the oil as of yet I am hoping to do it tommorow, I haven't had much time. I'm not wasting any time and effort chasing anything... I know the symptoms usually do indicate valve seals but they can also be 'classic' signs of bad oil rings, from what everyone is telling me. The problem with this problem is it could be more than one thing and there isn't really any easy way to figure which it is. Now I'm not doing anything else with it, except change the oil, as I said I'll try to do that tommorow. The next step for me is to take the head back off. I know that and I'm not trying to get around it or chase other phantom causes. I was playing with the TPS and clamping the return line to get the car running RIGHT... it had nothing to do with turning the boost up to 13, I wouldn't even do that on this car even if the motor wasn't smoking, I know it cant sustain 13 psi on stock efi. The problem with the TPS was there BEFORE we rebuilt the head, before the motor ever smoked, and caused the car to run like crap, to the point of being undrivable, and as rebuilding the head had no effect on this problem and I was trying to keep the car driveable I still had to mess with it to get it to where I could drive it to work everyday. The trick I did by putting the jumper in the TPS connector made the car run much better but also made it run way too lean/advanced so I wanted to clamp the return line to keep from damaging the engine any more by driving it this way. It had nothing to do with making it fast or faster. Nor did it have anything to do with the engine smoking. As far as everything we were discussing about the PCV routing, that had less to do with the engine smoking (I personally feel it is in no way affecting or causing the smoke) and more to do with keeping really nasty fumes out of the car. I was going to check the compression day before yesterday but that's about when I gave up and decided to try to sell the car. A few guys here showed me that that wasn't the best solution, but I haven't had time in the meantime to do the compression test. Hopefully I can do that tommorow also. Problem is i dont think the compression test will show anything, as more then a couple guys have suggested that though the oil rings may be bad, the compression rings might be fine, or more likely, the oil getting into the cylinders will seal the rings better and make the compression test show good results... so I'm not expecting any good reliable answer from the compression test, the results I get from that will most likely also point to valve seals. About parting out my N/A motor, it was sold long ago to pay for this swap... what a mistake that was. I may just find a junkyard motor to drop in OR if we take the head off and find it is not the problem I have a friend with a good low mileage block for cheap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted September 14, 2003 Share Posted September 14, 2003 Two quick questions: If fuel is indeed getting into the oil and contaminating it (I dont doubt that it is), how/why would this cause the engine to smoke more? If it is getting in there, wouldn't that in effect make changing the oil useless? As soon as I get it changed and drive home, wont more fuel just find its way in there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Afshin Posted September 15, 2003 Share Posted September 15, 2003 OK, OK I was being a little unfair and harsh to say the least (what's the male equivalent to PMS anyway), I've had my coffee now took the kids out to the park had some food and feel better . But seriously, how could the turbo seal go the second you put the rebuilt head on and then foul the spark plugs with oil and the J pipe be completely dry ?. I know there is a thin film of oil now, which is unimpressive and the problem was there before the oil. Also failed turbo seal typically do not cause start up smoke which goes away when you rev the engine and comes back when idling for a while. When turbo seals leak, there is less smoke at first when the engine is cold as the oil is thicker and smokes more as is warms up, you have the opposite. In terms of the rings, how could all 6 collapse simultaneously without good reason (i.e. overheating engine). It is certainly true that if the oil rings fail as opposed to the compression rings, compression values will be normal. The main reason for checking compression is to get an overall picture of the "health" of the engine. It should be checked anytime before the head comes out to evaluate if the bottom end seems OK. why fix the head if the bottom end is faulty.... Finally to answer you last question, the reason the car will start to smoke more when contaminated with fuel is that it decreases the viscosity (thins out) of the oil which both leaks thru seals and looses it's effectiveness in protecting the engine. And yes, it will get recontaminated as you use it again, but at least it will take a little while. Sorry about the tone of my last post, I really am trying to help you out and minimize the amount of work you do so you can keep the car and enjoy it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jersey Posted September 15, 2003 Share Posted September 15, 2003 Understand now on the 75 intake/sealing up the PCV port. I didn't know the '75's port was directly above the T3 when swapped in. There's been a lot that you've went through recently and i'm trying to keep up - Was this '75 intake swapped in just recently when you put the rebuilt head back on? Was the car smoking before you pulled the head? I remember you had a bent valve and a real bad sound, just don't remember if it was smoking or this just started happening after you put it all back together. Sorry, i read so many posts a day that the ol' brain gets mixed up sometimes You dont have to swap the T3 out to see if oil is blowing past the seal, going through your J-pipe, into your intake. Since you now say it smokes at idle constantly, just remove the J-pipe, plug that open little T pipe port that goes to the air regulator/vacuum control valve/AAC, then start the car and let it idle. If it still smokes, it's not coming from your T3, at least not the compressor side. Now thinking back from your previous posts, first thing i suggest you do is get a battery. You mentioned a while back about your battery being dead one morning or something and wanted to throw it in your girls car to charge, and now you mentioned that it wont crank sometimes and the lights are dim. It may not be your starter OR alternator at all. If you already replaced the battery, sorry, must have missed that info. When you had the car sitting and idling, did you have the crankcase breather unplugged? What kind of vacuum are you gettign @ idle? Also, an easy and cheap way to test your temp gauge is to buy a $5 meat thermometer (or rob it from mom/wife/g/f ) and stick it in the radiator when it's up to temp and thermastat is open. I know you dont feel that some of the suggestions that others, including myself, are not in any way the cause of your problem but, you never know until you try...and they're not hour long, intense tests like ripping the head back off to see what ya see. You may be surprised one day... i still learn every day. Fustration is tough to deal with but it'll be all worth the reward when you figure it out. Let us know how ya make out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted September 15, 2003 Share Posted September 15, 2003 Afshin - I dont really think it is the turbo seal, but I know it is a possibility and seems more likely then the rings, though less likely than a foul up with the head... I only thought turbo seal at first because the guy who built the had has a really good reputation so I figured it was really unlikely to be something he did wrong, and the turbo seal would explain and make more sense as to how all six cylinders are getting oil. As far as the amount of smoke vs. engine temp, it does not seem to get any better or worse as the engine warms up, and usually it only blows a puff of smoke when I first start it. It will only constantly smoke if it idles for a long time. I agree the symptoms dont match what I've heard for turbo seals going bad and definately seem to point towards valve seals. How it would be possible for the rings to collapse on all six cylinders... your guess is as good as mine. I'm ahead of you on the compression test though, I did do a compression test before we pulled the head, that's how we figured out it was a bent/stuck valve on #6 the compression on all other cylinders was good, I forget the exact numbers, and they were all pretty close together... me and the mechanic both felt the block must have been in pretty good shape, and I wouldn't have bothered pulling and rebuilding the head if the compression test had shown otherwise. I just hope if we pull the head off that we can tell relatively easily if it is at fault or not. Jersey - We swapped the intake in at the same time as we put the head back on. The engine never smoked until that night that the valve got stuck, it smoked a little the couple times I started it up after that, I figured because that one cylinder was dead, but it didn't smoke anything like the way it does now (after the rebuilt head was installed). The car will start and idle if I take the J-pipe off??? I had thought of trying that but didn't think it'd run disconnected like that... will I have to hold the AFM open by hand or anything? That'd be one easy way to see if it is the turbo seal... if it IS the turbo, it'd definately have to be the compressor side... it wouldn't be the exhaust side, as remember, there is oil on all six plugs when I pull them out. About the battery, I took it to auto zone under warranty and had it replaced, and it didn't help problems with slow cranking or dimming lights... I'm 99% sure my starter is going bad and very likely my alternator too. The first time we started the car with the new head on both the crankcase and valve cover breather were open to atmosphere and it was smoking. I drove it like that for the first two days and it smoked, and again, after I plugged the crank breather and routed the valve breather back to the turbo-afm boot, the smoke level did not change at all. I'm getting 20-22 hg's of vacuum at idle at all times. And Jersey, rest assured of one thing... just about every suggestion that has been made to me on here, whether I personally felt or understood the how's and/or why's of how it could cause, or fix the problem, or not, I have considered them a possibility or tried the suggestions anyways I really do value you guys' opinion on here and I know that many of you have way more experience dealing with these cars than I do, and I appreciate every word of advice that comes my way, whether it ends up helping or not and would try just about any idea you guys may have so long as I have the means to try them, so keep'em coming! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nic-Rebel450CA Posted September 15, 2003 Share Posted September 15, 2003 bastaad525 Were you able to find any of that glowing leak check fluid I was telling you about? I found out that it has different names at every auto parts store so you would just want to go in to your local parts store and ask them if they have any oil additive that glows under a black light. I can see what auto zone calls it since you said that auto zone is what you have. Also, as another off-hand suggestion, I dont know much about turbo motors, but can you disconnect the turbo from the intake and run the car that way? If so, could you just let the engine run as N/A to eliminate any questions of boost causing over pressure? This would also be a (potentially messy) way to see if your turbo is blowing oil in the intake. Additionally, I was reading a couple of your replies about the PCV and I am a little confused of your setup, as well as very curious when you stated that taking the filler cap out creates a vacuum leak. Can you take a few pics of your engine and intake? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David K Posted September 15, 2003 Share Posted September 15, 2003 baastad, u need help? A few guys and I are willing to come give you a hand. PM me if you wanna have us come up and help you out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nic-Rebel450CA Posted September 15, 2003 Share Posted September 15, 2003 Just checked autozone.com, they have a few products listed when I tried searching, but the links arent working for me. Uv Leak Detector Uv Dye Shots Uv Leak Detector Kit See if any of these rings a bell with them (Just make sure you tell them it's for the oil system) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jersey Posted September 15, 2003 Share Posted September 15, 2003 I can run my Z and my cousins '83ZXT at IDLE without the J-pipe connected and the little port plugged... At idle only. If you try to give it any throttle, then you would have to move the AFM flapper by hand to try and match throttle position...and it would be pretty tough to do. Now maybe my experiences are different than others but, i can run both these cars like this. It seems like you're all hooked up with David Karey's offer! Very nice offer David. Wish i was closer to lend a hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted September 15, 2003 Share Posted September 15, 2003 Nic - I had asked the auto zone guys about that stuff when i was there two days ago and (as usual whenever I ask them about just about anything ) they had no idea what I was talking about. I did go thru all their bottled stuff and didn't see anything that fit the bill. Now that I have a couple names I"ll call around and see if any other stores carry it, I"ll also try Kragen and Pep Boys. David - I'll Pm you Jersey - kewl I didn't know it would even idle like that... I was actually thinking of temporary ways of taking the j-pipe and running a hose from the afm to the tb as I thought you had to have the TB hooked up. This is the next thing I will try, as this will definately show if it is the turbo or not and is easy to do. I wont need to worry about revving it at all since the smoke is worse at idle than anywhere else. Thank you for that tip I'll PM David right now... Tim240z had also offered to help pull the head off but didn't reply to my email afterwards.... Tim where you at?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim240z Posted September 15, 2003 Share Posted September 15, 2003 I'm here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 graaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrr *kicking his f'ing car* okay I haven't touched the car in 3 days, and last time I parked it I disconnected the battery completely (both pos and neg). Today I went down to start it and try as Jersey suggested, to run it with the Jpipe disconnected and see if it still smokes. Of course the battery is dead... so my alternator must be bad right? The battery is brand new, I just got it replaced on warranty last week. I've been noticing my lights seem a little more dim and the car cranking slower and slower even after replacing it. When I connect the battery though the amps read fine, above the midway mark... if that means anything I dont know how to read an amp gauge. It just BARELY wants to crank it cranked over like 5-6 times and that was all she had to give. At any rate I took the opportunity to take the J-pipe off and have a look anyways and there doesn't seem to be any more oil built up in there above the initial film I noted last week, so I'm relatively sure now that it is indeed not the turbo. When my g/f get's home I'll have her give me a jump start and try idling with the J-pipe off anyways, just to be sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jersey Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 525 - have you checked the voltage supplied to the battery by the alternator when it is running? I wonder if you're full fielding the alternator and burning the batteries? After she cranks a few times and finally wont crank any more, do either of you battery cables become hot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 No I dont have a way to check voltage What do you mean by full fielding the alternator? Is that something that would be taken care of by replacing it? Tell me it didn't just ruin a new battery though they wont replace under warranty again if it did. The battery cables didn't become hot after cranking it, unless they cooled off really really quick. I took them back off not more than 2 minutes later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 Hey do you guys know anything about there being two different sizes of valve stem seals commong to L6 engines? A friend of mine mentioned that he was relatively sure there were two different sizes of valve seal for Z engines, though he wasnt' sure what the application differences were. He suggests that this could be my problem, maybe I was given the wrong size? If anyone has any more info on this.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 well it's not the turbo Got the car running w/o the J-pipe on there... I did have to hold the AFM open a little by hand (was actually surprised at the amount the flap needed to be open just to sustain an idle) after a few minutes, revved it a couple times slowly (moving the AFM simultaneously) and after I'd let off it would smoke pretty bad still. One thing down two to go... gotta get the head off and double check all the valve seals... if not that then new rings (or rather just another block) is/are in order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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