V3 EDIS-x installation, set up, etc.

[z-ya]

OK, it looks like I found the problem. I'll know for sure tonight when I get a chance to fire it up.

 

I have the "Trigger Angle" in the "Spark Settings" set to 60 deg, rather than 0. Duh!! I kind of ASSumed that since the missing tooth is located 60BTDC, I should also set the trigger angle to 60 deg. NOT! From what I read, the trigger angle is controlled within the EDIS module, not by the firmware in the MS.

 

Another thing I discovered this weekend. Adding a 1uH choke in series with the SAW signal at the EDIS module removes the voltage spikes on the SAW signal. These spikes exceed 5V (closer to 10V), and could have a negative effect on the EDIS module, and timing consistancy. I'll verify the effect once I get the advance mechanism working. I will also post scope shots before and after.

 

One more thing, that Chrysler coil pack put out a serious arc! I was testing to be sure I was getting spark on all cylinders by pulling plug boots one at a time with a rubber glove on. The spark jumped about 2 inches out of the boot to the plug. That makes the arc about 3 inches long! With a psark like that, this EDIS module/Chrysler coil pack combo should be great for boosted applications! On to the dyno session.

[mobythevan]

I finished ordering my parts for EDIS8 on the 454 BBC. I got an EDIS8 module and two of the Ford 4 post coils. I already have the trigger wheel. Hopefully it will be plug and play with the info that you guys have tested and found.

[BRAAP]

Pete,

Thanks for the update. Looking forward to your next…

 

Moby,

Also looking forward to your EDIS-8 update as well. If we can help out in any way, let us know.

[z-ya]

OK, got the advance working with EDIS. It ended up being both the module, and the fact that I had the trigger angle set to 60. It should be zero for EDIS. So I put a new module in (thanks to a lovely Ford Aeorstar), and uploaded the latest firmware. Have the idle timing set to 35 deg (idles a bit lumpy, but much better than with the advance at 10 deg). Yea, it's a mutt (Ford ignition, Dodge RAM throttle body, Chrysler Coils, Jeep air intake, Toyota brake calipers), but it sounds incredible. Can't wait to get it on the dyno. Maybe next weekend. Hear are some new photos:

 

[mobythevan]

Looks great, I got my EDIS8 module and coils in. I didn't get the connector for the module. That seems like the only piece I am missing now.

[BRAAP]

Pete,

WOW! That is awesome. Good work. How is the tuning phase coming along?...

 

 

 

I was able to finally get a little further with our V-3 EDIS sparked L-series project.

 

The fuel system is now completed with a new 8 gallon fuel cel, new EFI pump, filter, all new 5/16” stainless fuel line, etc. The dash and wiring are also complete including the MS wiring and the Honda S-2000 “engine start” button. I installed the MS controller on the trans tunnel just under the center portion of the dash and the Relay board is mounted in the engine bay, on the driver side fender-well near the clutch master cyl. All that is left now is Spark plug wires from the EDIS-6 controlled coil pack, burn the latest version of MSnS-E to the controller, install and set up MT 2.25 “release” and then pray that I don’t end up with any software instability issues… (fingers crossed…) I just may hire someone that is MSnS-E/M.T. savvy to come over and get the software all set up and communicating without any hiccups or resets, etc. I can handle the tuning phase, I’m just allergic to software bugs… Anyone close enough to the Portland Oregon region that would be willing to come out to Rusch Motorsports and make sure the software is set up correctly? Of course we would make it worth your while…

 

For some reason, these pics show the car as a really pale butter cup sort of yellow, yeuck!! The car is NOT that shade of yellow.

 

First pic is the relay board mounted.

Second and third pics are of the dash and center console. The center console has the red covered power switch, engine start button, H2O temp, oil press, volt gauge, and a toggle switch on the left side of the center console that is a manual override for the cooing fan. On the right side o the center console at the bottom is the 6 terminal fuse block. The Yellow Shift light is next to the tach on the steering column and the Red “low oil pressure” light is mounted near the drivers A-pillar on the roll bar. You can just make out the MS controller under the dash.

Last pic shows the fuel cel, pump, and filter that reside in the back of the car under a removable cover.

 

 

 

 

 

[BRAAP]

IT RUNS!!!! WOOHOO!!!!

 

 

The initial start up was not a smooth one. Spent approx 20 minutes trying to get it to light off. It would only cough and sputter and try to run but only sty lit for 1-2 seconds tops. After making random fuel changes in MT and burning those to the controller with no change in the coughing and sputtering, it all of sudden came to life. I have absolutely NO idea what changed and caused it to go from coughing and not running to being able to run under its own power. Oh well, it now runs. It wouldn’t hold its own idle, I had to help it with slight throttle application, but after I saw some coolant temp, I tried mashing the pedal a few times and BOY howdy does it rev QUICK! It will rev incredibly fast, just like it did with the triple carbs. Shut it down and checked for leaks, all was well, fired it back up and drove it up the road ½ mile and then back. Flat spots all over the rpm range, (as to be expected from fuel and spark maps that were arbitrary entered), but it did drive under its own power for over a mile up to approx 35 MPH!!!

 

Issues that need addressing….

 

1) Fuel and spark maps need adjusting, obviously. This one will just take time.

 

2) RESETS are occurring… After I brought the car back into the shop after the short jaunt down the road, I shut it off and restarted it, just holding it at 2000 RPM, I noticed the engine did a little hiccup. I looked down at the screen on my lap-top and in the bottom right corner it said “RESET 3”. Then it did another hiccup, (hiccup being a misfire like the EFI/spark shut down completely for approx 2-4 combustion pulses/split second, like a moderate misfire with no “pop”), and then the little box in the bottom right of the screen said “RESET 6”. So I continued to hold the RPM between 1500-3500 RPM and over approx 45 seconds time, it did the same thing a few more times and every time the RESET number would increase one digit, sometimes 2 digits. The hiccups need to be cured and appear to be caused by these resets for some reason or another… This one could be easy, or could be HELL!

 

3) The MS controller is currently set up with MSnS-E 025, I’m using the MT 225 release which doesn’t support 025, though I do have MT configged for 027 which seems to allow me to tune at the moment. I know, I know, I must have MT configged to match the MSnS-E, and I will burn 029q2 into the MS controller and the latest MT which should support 029q2. I just got antsy to start the car…. AND IT RUNS!! Any how, this should be an easy fix, barring any software bugs… (did I mention that I DON’T do software bugs?)

 

4) I need to let MS control my cooling fan. RS-Autosport did some mod to my MS controller so that it will control the fan, though I’m not sure if it is grounding signal or +12v signal coming from the MS relay board? This one should be an easy fix.

 

5) RS Autosport also did a “tach mod” to my MS controller so it would run my Autometer tach. It does work, but my Autometer Tach is only registering exactly half of actual engine RPM according the tach in MT. This one should be a simple fix as well.

 

 

Now the car actually runs, It will probably be a week or so before I do any more work on it. Gotta get a couple other projects through the shop first.

[BRAAP]

I had to pull the car out to clean the shop, once I fired it up, I couldn’t help myself so I turned on the lap-top and did a little fiddling in an effort to get the engine to idle on its own. I did a little playing around with the VE “fuel” and “spark” maps, now the engine idles nice at 900 RPM with just hint of slight lope.

 

Being able to control the ignition advance at any RPM and any MAP setting with a key stroke from the driver seat while the engine is running is really quite cool. Make the change in the VE table within the MAP BIN the engine is currently running, hit the “tab” key on the keyboard and instantly, the engine immediately responds to the new timing setting!!! No more mechanical advance flyweights and springs that affect the entire ignition curve. Immediate “Pin-point” ignition tuning on the fly is cool!!!

 

 

 

Also, the Auto meter Tach is registering correct RPM now, easy fix. There is a neat little setting under the “General” tab within MT called “Tacho output pin” and in that is a setting for “normal” or “half speed”. Just set it to “normal”.

[tube80z]

IT RUNS!!!! WOOHOO!!!!

 

Cool dude. So we'll we see it out this year?

 

Cary

[z-ya]

Paul,

 

Great to hear it's running. You really do nice work!

 

Mine is running good enough to putter up and down the driveway, but it hasn't been on the dyno yet, so the fuel map is wrong. This Saturday it should be on the dyno, and I'll post results when I have them.

 

Yea, nothing like crank trigger ignition. I'm running like 30 deg advance at idle. really smooths it out.

 

Are you using one of the extra outputs to drive your tach? I was going to do the wrire OR circuit using diodes that is on the MS EDIS page to drive a stock 280Z tach.

 

Pete

[BRAAP]

Cool dude. So we'll we see it out this year?

 

Cary

 

 

 

Cary,

The rest of this week I REALLY need to stay focused on Customer projects and I REALLY want to take the car to the Datsun Canby event on Sunday. Being as it does start, idle and can move under its own power in its current state, (if it isn’t broke, don’t fix it, …yet..) I wont make any more changes to the state of tune till after the big Datsun Canby show on Sunday.

As for making to race events, depending on how far I get with tuning, I am hoping to make the 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th EESCC events to use as shake down runs and would like to also make the Enduro Cross for more tuning and seat time, not ready to compete with it yet. A lot of “ifs” between now then. New firmware with no bugs, air cleaner, brake master cylinder, and coarse tuning of the fuel and spark maps… Fingers crossed….

[BRAAP]

Paul' date='

 

Great to hear it's running. You really do nice work!

 

Mine is running good enough to putter up and down the driveway, but it hasn't been on the dyno yet, so the fuel map is wrong. This Saturday it should be on the dyno, and I'll post results when I have them.

 

Yea, nothing like crank trigger ignition. I'm running like 30 deg advance at idle. really smooths it out.

 

Are you using one of the extra outputs to drive your tach? I was going to do the wrire OR circuit using diodes that is on the MS EDIS page to drive a stock 280Z tach.

 

Pete[/quote']

 

 

Pete,

Thanks for the compliment. RS-Autosport offers a Tach drive and fan controller mod to MS controllers. I had them do both to my MS controller. I’m sure it is an easy DIY mod, but I really don’t’ trust my electronics skills and didn’t want to melt my PCB trying to solder it myself so I felt it best to leave it to the experts. RS Autosport also built my MS for me and the craftsmanship is FIRST rate throughout.

Any how, after RS Autosport waved their magic wand over my MS controller, the tach output is pin 25, in MT 225 release under the “General” tab, “Tacho output pin”, set to “js-3”. I just ran a wire from the pin 29, (S-3 on the relay board), to my Auto-meter tach and wala. It works great.

For the fan output, use pin 29, in MT under “Code Config” tab, “Outputs”, “Code base and output functions”, set “X2 (JS0)” to “fan control”. Then under the “Code Config” tab, “Shift light/fan/output 3+4”, set your “Fan-ON” and “Fan-OFF” temps. I’m waiting to here back from RS Autosport on whether the fan control output is a “grounding” signal or a +12v. I guess I could just put my DMM on pin 29 to see if it gives “+12v” or a “ground” at the set temp point. For now the fan is manually controlled.

 

http://www.rs-autosport.net/catalog/index.php

 

 

Hope that helps.

[z-ya]

I'd be willing to bet that the fan relay output provides a ground (-) to the relay. Most relay outputs do so.

 

The tach maod should not be difficult, I didn't realize the Extra code had it built in. All sorts of surprizes in the MS stuff!

 

Pete

[BRAAP]

BAD Paul…

 

I couldn’t help myself. All day I had been day dreaming of inputting some new fuel and spark settings, so I came up with off the cuff ignition map and off the cuff fuel map for the car, wrote them down, and then inserted those settings, (see pics). We ”think” these injectors are 21 lb/hr, but not sure yet.

WOW! What a diff a total guess at fuel and spark settings made. I grabbed Ron Tyler and made him get in the passenger seat and we headed out for a quick jaunt. The car now accelerates similar to how it did with the Triple Weber carbs, part throttle is still a bit sketchy, idle is little raw and the RESETS are really annoying. Any how, while out on this test drive, a brand new Mini Cooper drove by while we were going to make left hand turn and come back to the shop, and this little Mini was taunting us. I succumbed. (BAD Paul….) Ron reminded me that I only had some cheapo BFG Comp T/A’s on the Panasports (street tires for tuning MS on our rural back roads), and not the slicks, I just smiled and rowed the shifter. Mind you, if you’ve ever been out to our shop, it is a 4.5 mile trip up AND down tight twisty curves, 2 of them 180 degree hair pins, lots of 1st and 2nd gear turns, a couple 3rd gear straights and over 200 feet of elevation change. The poor little Mini tried and tried to get away, but no dice. (I don’t think he knew he was up against a race car). Even running a “guess” fuel map, we couldn’t use full throttle without running over that little Mini. We were playing a bit doing some drifting at almost full opposite lock on a few of the corners and still gaining on the Mini. There is LOTS more power left.

Any how, if the RESETS can be fixed, this could prove to be a decently powerful N/A setup.

 

 

[z-ya]

Paul,

 

You are running a sheet load of advance in the 3 to 7k RPM range. This is OK with your CR and the available gas (or do you have race fuel). A freinds 11.5:1 L31 with a Sunblet head can run 35deg max without detonation on 93 ocane.

 

Got scheduled on the Dynapack this Saturday, so if all goes well, I will have dyno charts this weekend.

[jgkurz]

Paul, On my low compression turbo L28 I run 40 BTDC at cruise. I've had people tell me even this is too much. The most I've ever seen is on a similar engine is 42. The dyno will tell all but you might consider dropping it down a touch. Just my .02C

 

BTW, I can't wait to see the finished car at Canby! Congrats on getting it going.

[BRAAP]

I am running AV-gas in the car, and no “audible” indication of any excess timing or compression… (at least that I can hear…) BTW, I spent about and hour on the back roads around our place last night tuning it some more. Runs pretty good, but still a long way off from ideal. The resets are VERY troublesome and at idle will kill the engine and flood it causing it to hydraulic lock when cranking for restart!! ARRGH!!! Scared the crap out of me the first time it happened. I though the timing chain broke or a rod let go when the starter just locked up about half way through a revolution. Any how, with the alternator disconnected, the MS still resets at RPMs below 1500, but not as severally. With the alternator hooked up and a capacitor on the alternator, it resets less often above 1500 than it did without the capacitor but it still resets HUGE below 1500 RPM, and only once in a great while above 2000 RPM. Any how, I will be ordering a line conditioner for the power wire for the MS controller. I’m told that will solve the MS “reset” issue..

 

See you guys at Canby..

[z-ya]

Paul,

 

Where is the MS +12V physically connected? Do not connect the +12V source for the MS at the starter. Run a separate 16-14 gauge wire directly to the battery. I also run at least one 14 gauge (or multiple 18 gauge) ground wires from the MS to the battery. Because the MS provides ground for the injectors an all relays, it needs a heaftier ground connection than +12V connection.

 

What is you battery voltage when the engine is runnning? Anything less than 12.5V is not good. Check your alternator.

 

Make sure you have a the engine and chassis grounded to the battery with 4 gauge wire. I run a 4 AWG from the - on battery to the chassis, and then another 4AWG from the - on battery to engine.

 

Is the RPM display in MT solid (no jumping)?

[BRAAP]

Paul' date='

 

Where is the MS +12V physically connected? Do not connect the +12V source for the MS at the starter. Run a separate 16-14 gauge wire directly to the battery. I also run at least one 14 gauge (or multiple 18 gauge) ground wires from the MS to the battery. Because the MS provides ground for the injectors an all relays, it needs a heaftier ground connection than +12V connection.

 

What is you battery voltage when the engine is runnning? Anything less than 12.5V is not good. Check your alternator.

 

Make sure you have a the engine and chassis grounded to the battery with 4 gauge wire. I run a 4 AWG from the - on battery to the chassis, and then another 4AWG from the - on battery to engine.

 

Is the RPM display in MT solid (no jumping)?[/quote']

 

Pete,

Thanks for your help. When the alternator kicks in, I get 14 volts. Tach signal in MT appears to be rock stable as well as the Autometer Tach signal. When MS goes through a “reset”, it completely shuts off as well as all the other gauges in MT during the reset, then they all come back online. The Autometer Tach also goes to zero instantly for that split second during the reset. That is how I tell the difference between a misfire and a reset.

When I started the MS conversion, I tore out EVERY wire that was in the car with plans to rewire it completely and pay close attention to certain aspects during the process based on what I’ve read in the MS manual and things I’ve read on the MS forum. I am running the MS Relay board as well. Here is quick run down of what I have, the physical locations, and the electrical ties ins…

 

1) MS controller on top of the trans tunnel just under the dash. DB-37 cable runs along interior firewall over to the driver side, penetrates pretty much where the OE 280 EFI harness pops through the firewall. The Relay board is where the OE windshield squirt bottle would go. Alternator has been relocated to the drivers side of the engine. The EDIS module is under the passenger fender just ahead of the inspection door. Coil pack is on the passenger strut tower across form the spark plugs. The VR sensor is located where the Alternator used to be on the passenger side of the engine. Battery is stock location.

2) Wiring.

a) Battery and grounds… Battery cables run from the positive and negative posts on the battery to the starter and starter mount bolt respectively. There is a dedicated ground wire that runs from the starter mount bolt into the cockpit and then splits to ALL the other no EFI related electrical goodies on the dash such as the gauges, switches, etc, i.e. everything has a dedicated ground wire to the battery ground at the starter, expect the fuel pump and cooling which utilize body ground.

Alternator…. The Alternator is a GM one wire that has its wire running under the oil pan along the rack and pinion over to the passenger frame rail, then it ties into the electrical system on the Starter positive post. I also installed a Capacitor on the alternator itself from one of my ’77 280Z parts cars.

c) MS wiring… ). MS power is wired from the relay board directly the battery cable terminal on the battery itself as well as the MS ground. MS “Switched” power comes from the “power” relay that is also the power for the ignition system listed below.

d) EDIS wiring…. The VR sensor wires are twisted as a pair and are sheathed their entire length in the braided steel shield purchased from RS Autosport and I then attached the OE EDIS shield wire at the module, but left the shield “open” at the VR itself, (just like in the EDIS wiring diagram below). The PIP and SAW wires are also twisted as a pair and sheathed just as the VR wires, all the way up to the Relay board. As for the PIP and SAW wires between the MS controller and relay board that run in the DB-37 cable, no shielding or twisting was performed, (should I shield them there as well? Physically that DB-37 cable is no where near the alternator or ignition components or ign wiring. The power wire for the EDIS Module and the Chrysler coil pack run into the cock pit where they are powered through a Relay that that gets it power from the positive terminal. I retained the Ford capacitor from a Ford 6 cyl Coil pack for use on the Chrysler coil pack. The EDIS module ground wire runs to the starter mount bolt with the negative battery cable.

 

I do plan on installing a power line conditioner in the power wire to the MS controller as I’ve been told that should fix the reset issue by cleaning up the power signal.

Based on what I’ve listed, do you have any more advice?

 

 

[z-ya]

Paul,

 

Sounds like you have taken a lot of care in rewiring your car and the MS. Are you getting ignition advance if you check it with a timing light? A noise filter might help. I did shield the SAW from the MS to the relay board. It is also sheilded form the relay board to the EDIS module. The tricky part is attaching the sheild only at the EDIS module sheild wire. I used some spare pins in the DB37 connector to keep the sheild isolated from ground everywhere except at the EDIS module. This will prevent any ground loops. The injector wires can be agressors towards the PIP and SAW signals. The SAW being the most sensitive because it is a 5V square wave, while the PIP is a 12V signal.

 

OK, spent about two hours on the dyno dialing in my Megasquirted 'N EDIS equipped supercharged L28 this morning. VERY satisfied wit hthe results. Hitting over 100% duty cycle on the injectors, but I was still able to tune it safe enough to do a time trial event with. Right now running turbo injectors. I'm going to try and pry a set of 370cc/min injectors from a freind to give me some tuning headroom.

 

Hear is the dyno plot: http://www.zccne.org/gallery/albums/clubcar2006/ZCCNE_280Z_SC.jpg

 

This is plot includes traces from last year and today. Last year I ran the flat top motor with an N47 head and stock cam. This year I'm running the same short block, but with a P79 head, and Com Camps 460/280 cam. Neither head has any fancy port or polishing work. I also added a Camden supercharger at 8psi. No intercooler. I'm runing around 21deg of advance at 8psi.

 

Last year: 155HP, 165ft-lbs

This year: 255HP, 225ft-lbs

 

 

You can see at 255HP the Megasquirt soft rev limiter is starting to kick in. I may be able to get a bit more power by setting the rev limiter a little higher.

 

Aynway, the sound the SC makes is awesome. Really loud at 8psi. Can't wait to get it on the track.