JMortensen Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 310-538-2610 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phyxius Posted January 11, 2006 Author Share Posted January 11, 2006 Ok. These parts are ONLY available through Nissan Motorsports. They have 12 of the 1.75mm friction disks on hand at their warehouse. Everyone else who lists them probably does not have them on hand, but can order them through Nissan Motorsports. The MSRP per them is $19.xx. I assume they can ship directly cuz he told me to let him know if I wanted some. The website that shire240 listed said it would take 2 weeks for them to get the parts in order to ship them to the buyer. I'm still considering making my own though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 I have a question that pertains to stub shaft installation.... I realize that you have an R200 and the application I am interested in is for an R180... but... what is the clearance between the inside face of the side gears and the center pin/cross... I would be intersested if it had more than 3mm that did not change in the operation of the LSD... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 I don't honestly know what you're asking, BJ, but as the LSD works the side gears get farther apart since the cross pin cam spreads the pressure rings apart, and the side gears are inside the pressure rings. As long as you could get the stub shafts all the way in I don't think you'd have a problem with the LSD acting funky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 I am looking at the drawings... It makes sense to look at it this way... I would like to know how much room there is between the inboard face of the side gears.. and the nearest object(pinion cross)... in order to stick something on the end of the side gear... inside the LSD unit. I am assuming that they have used most of the space available... and the spider gears appear to be much smaller than the ones used in the open single pinion set... I know it is tight.. but 3mm would be all I need... even an estimation would work...3mm isn't much. I have made a closer examination of the unit. It appears to show that it is not possible for the clearances to change in between the 2 side gears.. or the next nearest object(pinion cross)... as the lash in the gears would change and eventually strip the side and pinion gears... my original concern was wether or not the carrier could shift side to side.. but it appears that this is static as well... I just wanted to know if I had 3mm or more to work with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 I have made a closer examination of the unit. It appears to show that it is not possible for the clearances to change in between the 2 side gears.. or the next nearest object(pinion cross)... as the lash in the gears would change and eventually strip the side and pinion gears... There are some LSD units where the spider gears don't change position. The Phantom Grip, Eaton, and Quaife fit this description. The Nissan LSDs, regardless of whether they're for an R180 or an R200 do allow the side gears to move away from each other. Here is an explanation of how from Gordon Glasgow's site: When the pressure rings push on the pinion shaft, the weight of the car resists. The fact that the pinion shaft is sitting in the v-groove causes a spreading force to be applied to the pressure rings. This pressure squeezes the friction plates and disks together, increasing their resistance to slippage. If your unit does not have the Belleville spring plates and disks, then this action will be quite sudden. The Belleville springs allow for a gradual increase in slip resistance before lock-up occurs. http://www.gordon-glasgow.org/lsd1.asp You should read this whole description if it still doesn't make sense. Basically the pressure rings move apart as the cross pin slides up the V shape. So the side gears DO move apart, but maybe your confusion was in the fact that it is the whole pressure ring that moves, and the side gears are inside the rings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 ok.... how about this... If you still have yours dismantled... stick a side gear in a pressure ring with any spacer that might go in as well.. gear teeth up. set the cross pinion with spider gears on top of the side gear... inside of the pressure ring... make sure the spider gears are spread out against the inside of the pressure ring... and center the pinion in the center(rest) position in the V groves. how much space is there between the pinion cross and the inside face of the side gear.. is there 3mm or more to work with? this would give the lowest clearance situation... I really think that the gears are set to a static lash clearance...the pressure rings obviously move away from each other.. but I think the side gears thrust against the inside of the carrier case...passing/thrusting through the pressure rings freely... I dont have one dissasembled to see... but that may change this week... one picture shows the side gears shoulders extending through the pressure ring...are you sure that the side gears are not bearing thrust against the end of the necked down shoulder of the side gears. I realize that in an open diff the rear faces of the side gears bear against the case in much the same way as they APPEAR to bear against the insides of the pressure rings in the LSD..... But i think that some study will reveal that the assembled unit keeps the thrust clearances for the side gears static... while the pressure rings are able to thrust back and forth freely...discounting spring disk pressure/preload. I also realize that you may have trouble popping a side gear out of the pressure ring be cause of surface tension of trapped lubricant... but that is not a problem during operation of the unit...there may be a thrust washer in there as well...but it may only be for preload clearance and self lubricating/anti gall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 I don't have mine apart anymore so I can't get that measurement for you. I would venture a guess to say that there is more than 3mm between the gear and the cross pin on the R200, but that's just my recollection so if you really want to know for sure you'll need to do your own measuring. As far as the gears being set to a particular lash, they definitely are not. You're right that the side gear sits in the pressure ring, and the clutches are on the other side of the pressure ring. So basically you have case/clutches/pressure ring/side gears/pinions/side gears/pressure ring/clutches/case. Some differentials use thrust washers on the side gears and the pinion gears. The Nissan ones do not. No thrust washers in a Nissan LSD at all. At least not the R200 that I own. The cross pin is the diamond shaped part that rides on the ramps on the pressure rings. When torque is applied the car doesn't immediately want to move. The weight of the vehicle provides resistance to movement, and this resistance makes the cross gear shaft ride up the V created by the two halves of the pressure ring. This happens every time the car is accelerated, and takes place before the car ever starts to move. So the driveshaft moves, but the wheels do not move before the clutches get loaded. The spiders will ride in the side gears just the same as without a load, but as the load is applied the ramps will force the pressure rings apart, so the teeth of the pinion gears move out of the deepest part of the side gear teeth. It's the side gears and the pressure rings being forced apart that squeezes the clutches tighter. So the more torque you can put to the LSD the harder it locks up. All that pressure on the clutch pack comes from the cross pins, is transferred through the pinion gear teeth to the side gears, to the pressure rings, and to the clutch stack on the other side. The case is the only part which is expected to contain this loading without moving. IMHO the potential misalignment of the spiders on the side gears is also what makes the 2 pinion R180 LSD so weak. Search the archives and you'll find the common consensus is that the 2 pin LSD is weak and prone to break the case. IMO this is because the spreading load is taken by two small pinion gears, and 4 spreads the load more evenly (and should also keep the pressure rings spread more evenly apart from each other as well). So it is definitely not the case that the spiders and side gears have a set lash. The harder you hit the gas the harder they push on each other, transferring that really high amount of load to the clutch pack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 soo in onther words... with any application of force on the carrier the gear teeth move out and away from each other which would cause horrendous wear on the edges and faces of the misaligned teeth... I really find that hard to believe...those teeth are not designed to run in misalignment or with improper lash.. are they?... they look like a standard heel to toe shape to me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 You must be a hands on kind of guy. Go take one apart. Then think to yourself: What in this carrier is holding the pinion gears and the side gears in a fixed position with a preset lash? Then you'll realize... ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. And what happens when you try to turn gears on each other and there is nothing holding them together? They try to spread apart. Same thing here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 You ask... what holds the side gears in place...NOTHING??? how about the carrier/case itself... Am am truly at a loss for words... after this I am done with it...I know for a fact that the side gears stay still in thrust....they do not get closer or further away from each other... Think about this... the side gears contain the retainers for the halfshaft's stubs... If the G.D. side gears moved in and out... your godforsaken axles would also thrust in and out of the entire G.D. rear end... that my friend IS NOT THE CASE>>>... so ... what ever... this argument has reached a point that it defys all logic and common sense... I have a NISMO LSD R200 installed in another car... Obviously the only way to get TRUE answers is to get them myself... If I am wrong..... I will post my apology here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Just throwing ideas around - Here are some plates, LSD parts that look similar to your drawings: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mazda-RX7-RX-7-LSD-Limited-Slip-Differental-Plates_W0QQitemZ8028485862QQcategoryZ33731QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem I think RX7s have a 7" ring gear (roughly 180mm dia i.e. R-180) no idea how big the differential case is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 You ask... what holds the side gears in place...NOTHING??? how about the carrier/case itself... What part of this side gear is "held" by the case? No part of the gear is held by the case. There is no thrust washer. There is no thrust surface of any kind on the gear, except where it sits on the pressure ring. The pressure rings move in and out since that is after all their function. So the side gears also move. We're not talking an inch and a half of movement here. Probably 1/8" max. Am am truly at a loss for words... after this I am done with it...I know for a fact that the side gears stay still in thrust....they do not get closer or further away from each other... Think about this... the side gears contain the retainers for the halfshaft's stubs... If the G.D. side gears moved in and out... your godforsaken axles would also thrust in and out of the entire G.D. rear end... that my friend IS NOT THE CASE>>>... so ... what ever... this argument has reached a point that it defys all logic and common sense... Then Salsbury diffs have been defying logic and common sense for the last 60 or 70 years. I have a NISMO LSD R200 installed in another car... Obviously the only way to get TRUE answers is to get them myself... If I am wrong..... I will post my apology here... I'll be waiting for that apology!!! Wrong is one thing. Belligerently wrong is another. You've not only been consistently wrong in this thread, you've been rude and insulting while doing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phyxius Posted January 12, 2006 Author Share Posted January 12, 2006 I think my thread has been hijacked....lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 I'll take 4 disks!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest zfan Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 I just so happen to have my slightly damaged r200 3.70 LSD pulled completly apart. I will not be at the shop until tomorrow but if there is something you need to know in regards to the components or fitment, let me know and I will do my best to answer your questions tomorrow. Fair warning, I am not an expert in any way shape or form so don't expect miracles guys! J/K! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 I am sorry for allowing my frustration to get the best of me... I have been called an A-hole many times... I am used to it... soo lay it on me. I am taking my LSD out today to get the measurements... the car is on the lift...I locked the rear wheels with the Ebrake.. I used a 3 foot breaker bar attached to the pinion nut to turn the pinion in the forward direction...with the rear wheels held still... I cannot put enough force on the nut to get ANY outwards deflection of the axles... I cannot put the kinds of loads on the nut that the driveshaft will on the input flange... but this mocked test looking at the exterior of the diff was only a starting point... it will be out by lunch.. I will get it on the bench tonite... I will post pictures of the internals.. as well as the count and types of various plates inside...soo that my question was not a total hijack of this thread... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 If you do that test on the bench none of the gears are moving. All you will do is compress the pressure rings. When the car is going around a turn under braking or acceleration forces there is a hell of a lot more going on than just power to the pinion. All of the spider gears are moving at that point. There is a spreading force generated by turning gears on one another, and that's what your test is missing. If you have a friend to help you maybe you could get them to pry on the CV joint while you put a couple hundred ft/lbs of torque on the pinion. Measure that with a dial indicator and then you might have a valid test. Pull it apart and SHOW ME where the side gears are held in a FIXED position to the spiders. Don't get me wrong, the preload on the clutch stack will hold the side gears in position, but once you compress the belleville springs, then what? Figure out what holds the side gears in place when the pressure rings spread, and please inform me as to what that part is. SHOW ME how you could set the gear lash on the spiders. Then when you realize that you are wrong don't forget to take a picture of you eating crow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Edit: read post further down... I was right once I opened it.... Well.... Im eating crow on this one... It is evident that there is significant clearance between the side gears and the carrier housing....although I have not opened the carrier yet.... It looks as though I have made an *** out of myself once again.... I owe JMortenson an apology for the foul frustated post... I should have just pulled and opened the differential before arguing.... But look at the bright side... I will post complete pictures of a new NISMO LSD unit.. which I would have never had the determination to do if had not gotten soo frustrated in the first place... Is there anything in particular that you guys would like to know about this unit... thicknesses or diameters.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Thanks for the apology. I know it sucks to be wrong, especially when you're SURE you're right. I want to see what your clutch stack looks like. If you look back to my post about shimming you'll see that Mat73GNZ had a much different set of springs clutch disks and plates than me, Phyxius, or Zfan. Then Gordon had that H190 LSD that was built like mine with the thick shims on the side. Those shims really suck. One more case of saving money by cutting quality... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.