Jump to content


- - - - -

Will a Z with an LS Engine turn?


  • Please log in to reply
56 replies to this topic

#1 Guest_speedmon_*

Guest_speedmon_*
  • Guests

Posted 15 January 2006 - 08:25 PM

OK,

I have the seen the posts with the LS1 engines in the Z and it looks like a good fit. Having a Z06, I know the power and reliability of those engines and I'm thinking about doing a conversion and I have 1 major concern...TURNS.

My car is a track club racer so it has to turn! And I've just tuned the suspension where its the way I like it......just a little loose.

Currently the car is about 2100 lbs and I like that weight. From my calculation an LS1 with a T56 is going to add at least 200 lbs not counting structural stuff.

So my question is, does anybody out there regulary "road track" their LS Z car and what adjustments had to made to keep the car from understeering off the track?

#2 Mikelly

Mikelly

    HybridZ Supporter

  • Donating Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6285 posts
  • LocationVirginia, United States of America

Posted 16 January 2006 - 02:51 AM

Here's something to chew on. The traditional sbc weighs about 40# heavier than the Datsun L6 Motor, IF the SBC has aluminum heads, intake and water pump. An LS1 motor weighs 90, that is N-I-N-T-Y pounds less than the traditional SBC. The LS1 sits pretty low in the engine bay and it sits further back since it doesn't have a distributor to contend with sitting against the firewall. :shock: I don't know where you're getting the 200# figure for your added weight. You'll pick up about 20# on the flywheel/ clutch assembly, and you'll pick up about 50# from the T56 tranny. But you're starting out with a motor that is about 50# lighter than the L6. :shock:

Simply put, a well sorted install of an LS1 BONE stock will get you somewhere in the area of 300-320HP with no mods or tuning. That's WHEEL HP, And torque will be higher, 330-360 range. :shock:

Personally, there's only two other motors I'd swap into a Zcar right now, and they are WAY down the list below the LSX based Chevy motor.

And for the record, I'm concerned ONLY with road race/ track day applications, so turning, stopping and going fast around corners are priority#1 with me. I can't help but think you'd be far ahead of the game with an LS1 tucked into the engine bay, based on the info above. :2thumbs:

Mark Icard (Mark on this board) was running an LT1 in his Yellow 240Z. He is now building a full track car and is installing an LS1/T56 combo in it. He should have it on the track by late spring. I'm sure a full report will follow.
Mike :cool:

Follow me on FB at Mike's Hobby Shop!

 

I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!
mjk 1994


#3 qwik240z

qwik240z

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 709 posts
  • LocationMaryland - Suburbs of Washington, DC

Posted 16 January 2006 - 06:53 AM

I had 2 track days with my 240Z before I did the LS1 swap and 2 track days after the swap.

My car is set up for street and track. I have coilovers on all 4 corners with eibach springs, tokiko 5 way adj inserts, camber plates, ST sway bars and strut tower bars front and rear. I ran the same tires for all 4 track days.


When I did the LS1 swap, I added subframe connectors from front to rear. No other changes were made.

I really didn't notice much of a change in the way the car handles before and after. The things I did notice were that before I used to set the tokikos on 4 in the front and 3 in the rear and now I set them on 3 in the front and 4 in the rear. No extra understeer is noticed an now I have the power to add additional throttle steer that i didn't have before.

As for weight, I never weighed it before but it now weighs 2540 pounds in full street trim with full interior, soundproofing, stereo, full tank of gas.

Mine puts down 317/365 to the wheels and is a blast to drive. I am so glad i didn't go with the ZZ4 crate motor I was going to buy.

LS power is the best.
ENJOY THE RIDE!
David

72 240Z
Code name:Silver Bullet
2002 LS1, w/ 6 speed
2650 pounds
340RWHP/365RW TORQUE
Posted Image Posted Image

#4 Guest_speedmon_*

Guest_speedmon_*
  • Guests

Posted 16 January 2006 - 08:22 PM

As far as the weight calcs go, I got them from this site from the thread entitled "engine weights table".

I think it stated that the L28 and 5 speed was 523lbs and
the LS1 motor was 503 lbs and the T56 was 140lbs. I was adding some slop yes, I guess technically it's only 120 lbs......which is less than the weight of most passengers.....which is why its an attactive option. But I could see the differential exceeding 300 with cross members and structural stuff.

What other parts do I need, does someone have a list?
Where did you mount the PCM? and the OBD2 port?
Are you running the 02 sensors so the PCM can learn and make A/F adjustments?

When this engine blows there is definitely an LS in this cars future.
I have a pretty good salvage connection, but should I budget another $3K-$4K in conversion parts?

And does anyone in SoCal have a LS converted Z I can take a look at?

#5 Mikelly

Mikelly

    HybridZ Supporter

  • Donating Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6285 posts
  • LocationVirginia, United States of America

Posted 17 January 2006 - 04:53 AM

Based on my own research, there is a ton of support for this swap. You'd need to get the JTR headers and the John's cars mounts, along with a complete LS1/2/6 and wiring harness/ ecu. Mount the ECU in the footwell sidewall like the stock ECU was un the 75-78 Z or in the passenger side passenger area against the firewall. You'd need a new driveshaft, and you'd need the MASS and plumbing for an air filter setup, but this is cake.

I bet I could do an LS1 Swap into a Zcar in two weekends, from start to sending it to the exhaust shop for pipes.

As to that weight table info, I have no idea how they came up with the weights, but that info is flawed a bit. The LS1 Shortblock assembly is absolutely 85-ish pounds lighter than a fourbolt main shortblock. Beyond that, there is certainly a weight gain on the tranny parts, but that isn't a bad thing, since that weight is carried more towards the center and lower in the car. Not to mention the 15 or so nissan transmissions I killed throughout the 80s and 90s. The newer Tremec TKO 5 speeds and B/W T56s are MUCH more durable than anything Nissan offered to the us buying public.

Mike :2thumbs:

Follow me on FB at Mike's Hobby Shop!

 

I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!
mjk 1994


#6 Phantom

Phantom

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2672 posts
  • LocationYakima, Washington

Posted 17 January 2006 - 05:45 AM

I weighed my car on certified scales before and after the conversion. I started with a '77 280Z that was 1,400 lbs on the nose and 1,400 lbs on the tail with 3/4 tank of gasoline. This is a street car with all the equipment right down to the AC system. When I was done, with front and rear strut tower braces, the car weighed 2,830 lbs with all the additional weight on the rear. The LS1 sits low enough and far enough back that it is almost a "midships" mount. Only the water pump and accessories are forward of the front axle. The T56 is the culprit that adds the weight but again it is low and very centrally mounted in the car. If you want to keep the weight down then look at a 4 or 5 spd that is set up for the particular tracks you run. I don't track my car much but in over 20,000 miles of driving the only difference in handling that I have noticed is the ability to throttle oversteer that I didn't used to have.

'77 280Z with LS1/T56, '93 Z32 convertible, '05 Audi A8L, '02 Suburban LT


#7 Pop N Wood

Pop N Wood

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2981 posts

Posted 17 January 2006 - 05:54 AM

I bet I could do an LS1 Swap into a Zcar in two weekends, from start to sending it to the exhaust shop for pipes.

Mike :2thumbs:


Does that include upgrading the fuel tank (240Z), replacing the fuel lines (old 240Z), rerouting the brake lines, clutch hydraulics, all instrumentation working, AC and PS accessory removal, recored radiator and reprogramming the ECU to eliminate VATS and the second O2?

If you can do it in two weekends, then with basic tools, experience and lacking a shed full of old Z car/chevy parts, would you say a Hybrid virgin should have a reasonable chance of success working weekends over a 2 month period? While I’m at it won’t be an issue the first time through because I know everything will come back out next winter for paint (yeah, I hear you guys laughing…)

What is the consensus on John’s car’s kit? I don't like the idea of adding a second cross member, but if John's kit gets the engine in right the first time, then for me that would go a long way to ensuring a successful swap. How much trial and error is involved with engine placement with that kit?

#8 mark

mark

    HybridZ Supporter

  • Donating Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1427 posts
  • LocationNorth Carolina

Posted 17 January 2006 - 06:03 AM

John's kit is easy to install and no guess work on engine postion.
Mark

IF I HAD ALL THE MONEY I'VE SPENT ON CARS, I'D SPEND IT ON CARS.

#9 Mikelly

Mikelly

    HybridZ Supporter

  • Donating Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6285 posts
  • LocationVirginia, United States of America

Posted 17 January 2006 - 06:06 AM

Pop, I'd say yes, you could do it in that amount of time. To answer the other questions about the OTHER changes to brake lines, fuel tank and such, that answer is YEs. I'd enlist Doug Carrow, Pete P. And Jamie T. in the build process, and I've got a lot more tools and parts than the average bear. The true key is to make sure you have ALL parts in house before you start. I'd bet two months of weekends would get it done with ease.

As to the Johns cars mounts, I was very impressed with David's car when he brought it down for the last cook out. The mounts look awesome and are truly top shelf parts.

Mike

Follow me on FB at Mike's Hobby Shop!

 

I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!
mjk 1994


#10 cobraz240z

cobraz240z

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 203 posts
  • LocationCALIFORNIA

Posted 17 January 2006 - 09:23 AM

doesnt the ls1 weight less than the l6 i thought it was a aluminium heads and block i would think it would improve the handling

#11 johnc

johnc

    Administrator

  • Administrators
  • 9739 posts
  • LocationLa Habra, CA, USA

Posted 17 January 2006 - 09:30 AM

Yes, a V8 powerd 240Z can be made to turn but I have yet to see one on a track keep up with a SCCA ITS prepared 200 hp 240Z. That has nothing to do with the potential of a V8 240Z and everything to do with the desired goals of folks doing V8 swaps. It takes a lot of money and time to properly prepare, setup, and tune a dedicated track car and very few people want to build a single purpose car.
----- John Coffey, Fabricator at Benton Performance, LLC

#12 mark

mark

    HybridZ Supporter

  • Donating Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1427 posts
  • LocationNorth Carolina

Posted 17 January 2006 - 09:41 AM

Yes, a V8 powerd 240Z can be made to turn but I have yet to see one on a track keep up with a SCCA ITS prepared 200 hp 240Z. That has nothing to do with the potential of a V8 240Z and everything to do with the desired goals of folks doing V8 swaps. It takes a lot of money and time to properly prepare, setup, and tune a dedicated track car and very few people want to build a single purpose car.



John,

I'm doing just that, a dedicated ls-1 powered track car. You are right about the time and money part. Also right about the V-8 Z car and an IT car. I could not match lap times at CMP in my street driven lt-1 240Z that the IT Z cars were running there. I hope to be able to say differently this year.

Ever come to the east coast? I would love to have you to set up this car but unfortunatly I can't get out there. I have saved most of your suggestions on suspension set up. Time will tell if IT Z cars still best any time I can post.
Mark

IF I HAD ALL THE MONEY I'VE SPENT ON CARS, I'D SPEND IT ON CARS.

#13 Phantom

Phantom

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2672 posts
  • LocationYakima, Washington

Posted 17 January 2006 - 10:10 AM

My car was the prototype for the Johns Cars 'kit'. He had the car for 11 months and, from the 30+ trips I made to discuss things with him, I can vouch for the thought and design efforts that went into the kit. The engine and transmission mounts put them where they need to be to line up properly with the rear end of the car plus provide clearance for headers and steering linkage.
The list of other "modifications" that are required is determined by personal preference. If you buy either a cableX converter box or chzasnge the tailshaft on the T56 to a mechanical speedometer output you don't need to change the speedometer. The tach can also be modified and the other gauges can have their senders incorporated into the LS1 installation. If the shell is a 280Z the tank doesn't need to be changed but the fuel lines will need to be rerouted in the engine bay. The pump and pressure regulator can be external models that mount where the stock pump mounts. This keeps the original instruments in place and a significant part of the fuel system.

Any work to the suspension or brakes would be things that you would do whether you were running an LS1 or an L28 so they should be considered an issue somewhat separate of an LS1 install.

Jphn Radevich (Johns Cars) estimated that an averege wrench could do the mechanical work on the install in about 40 hours. Probably close to the same for electrical - depending on how you approach it.

'77 280Z with LS1/T56, '93 Z32 convertible, '05 Audi A8L, '02 Suburban LT


#14 jt1

jt1

    HybridZ Supporter

  • Donating Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1561 posts
  • LocationNorth Carolina

Posted 17 January 2006 - 11:43 AM

posted by johnc
Yes, a V8 powerd 240Z can be made to turn but I have yet to see one on a track keep up with a SCCA ITS prepared 200 hp 240Z.


The ITS record for CMP is 1:51.842. This link is from 02, but a friend who runs a ITS 240Z says it still stands, the pavement was fresh then.

http://www.ccrscca.c...showpage&pid=39

I'm confident Mark's car is faster than that, because 1) The last time we ran together at CMP I couldn't keep up with him; and 2)At the 04 THSCC time trial I turned a 1:47.630, in the same trim as running with Mark.

http://www.thscc.com...results_cmp.htm

Both our cars are on V700's, full interior, street legal, except the mufflers on mine are iffy.

John
"OK, we'll see what he's selling, then shoot him."
"Good plan."

#15 Mikelly

Mikelly

    HybridZ Supporter

  • Donating Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6285 posts
  • LocationVirginia, United States of America

Posted 17 January 2006 - 12:46 PM

So Basically John took his V8Zcar and bested the ITS time by OVER 4 seconds. That's on a 2.3 mile road course, so four seconds isn't a small matter.

This is one such reason that I've changed direction on building my Zcar and am now building it as a dedicated HPDE car. Mark Icard was a true force to be reconned with when we were at VIR last February with THCC. He was clearly one of the fastest in the advanced group and was cutting 2:13-2:15 second laps. A number of us were very impressed watching him do battle with some serious hardware.

Mike

Follow me on FB at Mike's Hobby Shop!

 

I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!
mjk 1994


#16 mark

mark

    HybridZ Supporter

  • Donating Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1427 posts
  • LocationNorth Carolina

Posted 17 January 2006 - 01:32 PM

The ITS record for CMP is 1:51.842. This link is from 02, but a friend who runs a ITS 240Z says it still stands, the pavement was fresh then.

http://www.ccrscca.c...showpage&pid=39

I'm confident Mark's car is faster than that, because 1) The last time we ran together at CMP I couldn't keep up with him; and 2)At the 04 THSCC time trial I turned a 1:47.630, in the same trim as running with Mark.

http://www.thscc.com...results_cmp.htm

Both our cars are on V700's, full interior, street legal, except the mufflers on mine are iffy.

John


John

I feel much better. I thought it was 1:41 at CMP. I was banging my head against the wall trying to knock off a few more seconds. Hot lap timer confirms laps in the mid to upper 14X's pretty consistantly on fresh tires.
Mark

IF I HAD ALL THE MONEY I'VE SPENT ON CARS, I'D SPEND IT ON CARS.

#17 mark

mark

    HybridZ Supporter

  • Donating Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1427 posts
  • LocationNorth Carolina

Posted 17 January 2006 - 01:34 PM

Mark Icard was a true force to be reconned with when we were at VIR last February with THCC. He was clearly one of the fastest in the advanced group and was cutting 2:13-2:15 second laps. A number of us were very impressed watching him do battle with some serious hardware.

Mike



I'm blushing. :lmao:
Mark

IF I HAD ALL THE MONEY I'VE SPENT ON CARS, I'D SPEND IT ON CARS.

#18 Mikelly

Mikelly

    HybridZ Supporter

  • Donating Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6285 posts
  • LocationVirginia, United States of America

Posted 17 January 2006 - 01:41 PM

Yea, Kinda nauseating when I go back and read it now! :lmao:

Mike

Follow me on FB at Mike's Hobby Shop!

 

I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!
mjk 1994


#19 johnc

johnc

    Administrator

  • Administrators
  • 9739 posts
  • LocationLa Habra, CA, USA

Posted 17 January 2006 - 03:40 PM

Good to hear. I began bugging the V8 Z guys years ago and its nice to see someone carrying the flag.
----- John Coffey, Fabricator at Benton Performance, LLC

#20 v80z

v80z

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 374 posts

Posted 17 January 2006 - 05:19 PM

Mike et al

This is a great thread especially that applies to the eastern tracks. I have raced at VIR and SUMMit with a z. I am now in the process of building a dedicated track car V8 SBC.

If anyone has any set up tips could we make a sticky? in the motorsports section or other appropriate section.

also as we go to track if we could post times and challenges there i would be great as well.

does it warrant its own forum?

V8 S30-31 road course?
Competition begins in the garage !
18436572




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users