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Will a Z with an LS Engine turn?

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Hah! I was writting such a list just yesterday.

 

John's cars is at http://www.brokenkitty.com/. Start reading there on what is required.

 

Your second stop is Jaguars that Run, http://www.jagsthatrun.com/. Buy the swap manual from them. Not LS1 specific, but you will save a public "SEARCH SEARCH SEARCH" flaming if you ask questions you could have answered with the manual. Lots of invaluable info in that book. The brake line question is covered in there.

 

Radiator you can get from JTR, or you can recore the stock radiator to a 3 or 4 row core and use that. Get the drive shaft from the donor car, and consider getting the Camaro fans too. You will need to figure out what you want to do with engine accesories (PS, AC) and how to delete what you don't want. Anyone know how to rig up just an alternator?

 

Some of the other big ticket items will be the instrumentation (need to do something about the speedo and maybe tach). And you are also going to want a service manual for the engine, plus the $500 for tuning software if you plan any do it yourself.

 

One last thing. The stock LS1-2 heads flow really well. Car mags build 500+ HP dyno engines with little more than a cam and valve spring upgrade. Don't know that new heads are such a "must have" upgrade.

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Pop, If you buy an older model LS1 fromt he 97-2000 range (especially the 97-98 heads) you'll be down on power. We found this out the hard way with my new heads that were new 98 model cores. They simply don't flow nearly as well as they should, and don't make the power I should be making with my combo.

 

If I was to do it over, I'd copy the MTI 402 stroker setup with the LS2 shortblock and a set of LS6 lightly ported heads, or the new Dart heads, which are on my short list.

 

Mike

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so you are saying even after CNC porting ( You say you used 98 cores ) they still couldn't flow enough?

 

Also 5.3 and 6.0 heads are the same base casting of the ls6 heads with different size combustion chambers.

 

How are the ports that much off between a 98/01 head?

 

Andy

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We took brand new out of the box LS1 heads that were the fisrt generation LS1 head and had them ported, and 2.02/ 1.57 valves put in. However, I didn't know the numbers on the heads at the time, and didn't realize that the LS6 head came with soooo many improvements that even though my heads are worked on, the STOCK LS6 heads are probably an improvement.

 

On the LS series heads, Port Velocity is Critical. If you open the heads up to much, you kill the port velocity. We think that is the problem. My heads were opened up a fair amount. It's been documented over on LS1tech.com and Corvetteforum.com that the exact combo I built (but using different heads) should be well over 400WHP. Mine isn't and the only thing I've done differently than others is use those early LS1 heads, which have been documented to not flow as much as the newer LS6/ LS2 heads. All that said, I'm still making 386WHP and 382#ft. torque. However, I'd like to be in the 420WHP range like all the others running THAT combo (minus the Early LS1 head).

 

Supposedly a blower cam and a supercharger will benefit from these heads, so when I take them off, they'll sell quickly, but who knows... I'm looking at the new Dart heads right now, But a set of worked LS6 heads would easily get me where I want to be with HP numbers.

 

Mike

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It depends. I'm running the TR 224/224 114LSA cam in the Vette and I need to make sure the car will pass smog emissions testing in Virginia.

 

I've seen some LS1 Fbody cars do bolt ons and a cam and hit right at 400HP and that is with the same TR224 cam kit above and some stock LS6 heads with minor cleanup.

 

The earliest LS1 heads (Last three numbers are 853 on the casting) are the heads I'd stay away from now that I'm more educated on the subject... Guess what number is on the casting of my heads? :roll:

 

Yup, Suxs to be me! :lmao:

 

Mike :cool:

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This one has been made a sticky at the request of a few...

 

There's been a lot of speculation and debate about the V8 swap being a good candidate for track day duty on road courses. There is significant relevance in this thread to that arguement, so it's sticky-Worthy!

 

Good track times for CMP and VIR! I encourage all to post their lap times for road courses around the country!

 

Mike

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It depends. I'm running the TR 224/224 114LSA cam in the Vette and I need to make sure the car will pass smog emissions testing in Virginia.

 

I've seen some LS1 Fbody cars do bolt ons and a cam and hit right at 400HP and that is with the same TR224 cam kit above and some stock LS6 heads with minor cleanup.

 

The earliest LS1 heads (Last three numbers are 853 on the casting) are the heads I'd stay away from now that I'm more educated on the subject... Guess what number is on the casting of my heads? :roll:

 

Yup' date=' Suxs to be me! :lmao:

 

Mike :cool:[/quote']

 

I'm ecountering a big learning curve with the LSx motors, but what about a set of ETP heads? They are supposed to be the new big thing from what I've heard. Do the C5R style castings bolt up? What about AFRs?

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C5R castings won't bolt up and are stupid expensive. The AFRs are, well AFRs and do well, but at a serious cost.

 

Couple of guys over on LS1Tech and CorvetteForum recently reported LOW numbers using Patriot stage 1 and stage2 heads. Some guys have had GREAT results with those heads. What that tells me is that they don't have their porting process nailed down such that it is measurable and repeatable. Not a good thing to have with such a product.

 

The latest kid on the block is the new DART LS1 head. It is getting good reviews and is almost HALF the price of AFRs. However, I'll be searching for either bare 243 casting LS6 heads to send to North Carolina with my car, or a set of heads from one of the members on the boards mentioned above with PROVEN power numbers.

 

Jeff Creech posted within a week of my last Dyno tune down in Durham that he had tuned a 2004 GTO with the SAME cam, some headers, a catback, and no other changes (Guy has the LS6 heads on it I believe, or the LS2 heads, whatever came in the 2004 GTO) and the car hit 420 on the dyno with a safe and solid tune. Same exact cam. Same intake. Same injectors. Worse flowing headers/ exhaust and a smaller throttlebody. He's making 34HP and about 20# ft. more than me... It has to be the heads.

 

Mike

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C5R castings won't bolt up and are stupid expensive. The AFRs are' date=' well AFRs and do well, but at a serious cost.

 

Couple of guys over on LS1Tech and CorvetteForum recently reported LOW numbers using Patriot stage 1 and stage2 heads. Some guys have had GREAT results with those heads. What that tells me is that they don't have their porting process nailed down such that it is measurable and repeatable. Not a good thing to have with such a product.

 

The latest kid on the block is the new DART LS1 head. It is getting good reviews and is almost HALF the price of AFRs. However, I'll be searching for either bare 243 casting LS6 heads to send to North Carolina with my car, or a set of heads from one of the members on the boards mentioned above with PROVEN power numbers.

 

Jeff Creech posted within a week of my last Dyno tune down in Durham that he had tuned a 2004 GTO with the SAME cam, some headers, a catback, and no other changes (Guy has the LS6 heads on it I believe, or the LS2 heads, whatever came in the 2004 GTO) and the car hit 420 on the dyno with a safe and solid tune. Same exact cam. Same intake. Same injectors. Worse flowing headers/ exhaust and a smaller throttlebody. He's making 34HP and about 20# ft. more than me... It has to be the heads.

 

Mike[/quote']

 

I was talking about the ET performance heads, not the Patriot performance ones.

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Hard to believe that ITS track record still stands, old pavement or not. We called that driver "Coasting Kollar"- because that's how he went through turn 1 at Road Atlanta. That E36 Bimmer was all motor, no handling, and no driving. Speaking of driving, I was always a big fan of learning how to road race in a car with no horsepower first, like an ITS 240Z. I have no doubt that an experienced ITS pilot would obliterate the ITS track records with an LS1 Z on the same tires and a decent suspension. My observation whilst instructing drivers that learn a big hp car first is that they haven't learned how to conserve momentum into and through a turn. They stomp on the brakes until they're way too slow, jerk the wheel, and stomp on the gas after it's straight. Very hard to get them to be smooth and expand the traction circle on entry and mid corner when they got that big joy pedal. Boy would I love to put an LS1 in an old GT2 Z!

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Moriden, I know you was asking about the ETP head. My point in mentioning the Patriot heads is to illustrait the problems some of the LSx head providers are having in providing a reliable, repeatable performance head for the LSx platform.

 

Katman, You'r correct. We see it all the time at the track... Some guy in a Viper, Vette, or other big stick car... They're getting lapped by guys in e36 BMWs all day long. They aren't smooth, don't carry enough momentum, aren't smooth, and haven't gotten the technique down. Big HP only masks the mistakes of bad drivers until they have a BAD accident. :shock:

 

Mike :cool:

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Moriden' date=' I know you was asking about the ETP head. My point in mentioning the Patriot heads is to illustrait the problems some of the LSx head providers are having in providing a reliable, repeatable performance head for the LSx platform.

 

Katman, You'r correct. We see it all the time at the track... Some guy in a Viper, Vette, or other big stick car... They're getting lapped by guys in e36 BMWs all day long. They aren't smooth, don't carry enough momentum, aren't smooth, and haven't gotten the technique down. Big HP only masks the mistakes of bad drivers until they have a BAD accident. :shock:

 

Mike :cool:[/quote']

 

CNC Programs have alot of room for error ?

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Apparently they do. I thought it was pretty much plug and play, but what I was told is that the heads have some slop in them from GM and that causes these anomolies in head performance.

 

I've talked to several tuners and they've ALL mentioned the issues with the Patriot brand heads. Maybe it's just something going on with their facility, maybe it isn't... I can't personally tell you why that is. Maybe it is a faulty CNC machine, maybe it's something else... Don't know.

 

I figure it's very good information to make others aware of before they spend their money... I personally HAD a set of heads on order from Patriot and cancelled the order on the advice of three different tuners.

Mike

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My son-in-law (Howard Performance) is a custom GM LS Gen III & IV performance engine packager in Arizona, with 600-700 HP NA motors, turbos, blown & nitrous applications being fairly common. Various cubic inch. stroke, LS7 heads, etc.

 

No problems encountered with any heads (he doesn't use Patriot) nor any other problems with other components (cams, springs, rods, etc.) I've ever heard of, it's news to me.(many guys don't know you have to throw away your old head bolts and use new ones every time with LS V8s, also there are 3 tier head torque specs everybody seems to ignore)

 

My own custom built LS2 is fine too.

 

Point of reference, at our Pro Autosports events I've seen an accomplished driver, Bill in his "street driven" V8 Miata (about 400 RWHP) spank a Viper GTS on race compounds (Bill's Miata on Kuhmos), a Ferrari 360 Modena and a lot of BMWs and Porsches. (his particular motor is a stroker Ford V8 by the way) Logically, if Bill's Ford V8 Miata which is heavier than my LS2 V8 Miata turns (road course performance) fine, why wouldn't an LS V8 also work great in a Z-car if guys are making Fords perform well in Z-cars? too?

 

In my experiences you're much more likely to experience LS V8 problems with the range of fools that sell their own "Custom" wiring harnesses and "Reprogrammed OEM PCMs" or "Custom Dyno tuned" Delphi MEFI IV set-ups with "trust me" software integrations, also amatuer attempts at "speed density" mods pointed to eliminate using a MAF sensor.

 

Momentary lapse of reason can = BOOM!!! (with any motor)

 

- Lee

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Should be able to do an LSx swap and strip the interior add some fiberglass and end up around 2100 lbs with an early 240 also (one of our members has a 6 cylinder set up for autox at 1900 lbs), with a weight distribution of about 47/53 front to rear. That should be a KICK ASS track car. It will be mine... oh yes, it will be mine! :wink:

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I don't know. Got probably 5 years or more to sort that out. Maybe TKO? I need to blow up or wear out my L6 which only has 1500 miles on it, and in order to do that I have to get it on the road, which is probably still a year off. It's going to happen, just don't hold your breath.

 

I hope someone beats me to it. I've been hoping to see a really lightweight LS Z for a while now. Closest I think I've seen so far is the red one that has all the chassis bracing. It's Kipperman's car, the one that tube80z is always posting pics of. That one is 2500. That's not bad, but it should be pretty easy to get the thing way under the stock weight the way I figure.

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Mine weighed 2550 before I did the brake and diff upgrade and added A/C. I bet it is around 2650-2700 now. I will get it weighed soon.

 

I would think if I had wanted to strip it down for the track, I could have shaved 200-250 pounds or so.

 

Mike Kelly is building a track car and he is considering an LSx motor. Maybe he can get it down to 2200-2300#

 

What do you think Mike?

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The answer is definitely "YES". Since Dave has shown he can get this to work in an autocross and take top times out of 150+ cars, it can work. If you can make it work well for quick, tight stuff like autocrossing, stuff like track days, hillclimbs, etc is a piece of cake.

 

Example: http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=122599

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Yes, a V8 powerd 240Z can be made to turn but I have yet to see one on a track keep up with a SCCA ITS prepared 200 hp 240Z. That has nothing to do with the potential of a V8 240Z and everything to do with the desired goals of folks doing V8 swaps. It takes a lot of money and time to properly prepare, setup, and tune a dedicated track car and very few people want to build a single purpose car.

 

It's an old thread but ... had a big track weekend. Fastest ITS/ITA/SM were running 1:24's flying laps and I ran a 1:22.8 FROM A STANDING START (high speed AutoX) and in the 1:20's flying laps. So yes an LS Z can keep up. I'm also only an average driver so a good driver could easily take two seconds off my time and this is a street car I drove 200 miles to get there. These times were on F/A Hoosier slicks but also ran 1:22's flying laps on my RE01 Potenza's. This was at Blackhawk Farms which is an old 1.95 mile track in far northern Illinois.

 

Cameron

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Off topic, but it's been almost exactly 5 years since JMortensen's statement that it would take "5 years to sort out" his car. Any updates?

 

And speaking of 5 years ago, back then the "traditional" small block vs. LS-series was still somewhat of a serious debate. Today that hardly seems to be the case. Where has all the time gone?

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I've got almost enough parts to put it together, but have been tied down with the diff business for an extended period of time, and now I'm changing the software I use for my other business (www.thepetdoorstore.com), so I figure next year, IF I can actually get out to the shop and work on the thing. At this point that is a big if. I haven't given up though. Aiming at 2250 lbs now, since that is the min weight for XP.

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Yes, a V8 powerd 240Z can be made to turn but I have yet to see one on a track keep up with a SCCA ITS prepared 200 hp 240Z. That has nothing to do with the potential of a V8 240Z and everything to do with the desired goals of folks doing V8 swaps. It takes a lot of money and time to properly prepare, setup, and tune a dedicated track car and very few people want to build a single purpose car.

 

 

I think it is sometimes funny when I read old posts about "will an LS setup in a 240 turn or cant keep up with a 200 hp SCCA ITS prepped car"

 

Well, just for the record.................My car turns like a 600 hp go cart and runs in an unlimited division based on lap times with pretty good results. 6 wins in 6 races this year. Not bad for a 45 year old Vintage banger.

 

No disrespect. Just thought it was funny.

 

Matt

post-13190-016126200 1347511103_thumb.jpg

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Matt, It's simply you posting results. Simple as that. My car, hampered by significant mechanical gremlins ran only two laps and ran as fast as Greg Ira's customer's car at Summit Main and that car was in a vintage class above ITS. Had my car not been hampered with eleectrical/oil issues, I would have dropped at minimum another 5-7 seconds. But when you have no RPM above 4800, you can't very well run SCCA T1 times (ITS times aren't a concern or measuring stick in my mind).

 

Mike

Edited by Mikelly

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