Guest Mark300zxTurbo Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 what up, this is my first post. so I guess I gotta introduce myself. my name is Mark, I live in Yukon, Oklahoma. and I have a 1986 300zx Turbo. my engine is good, but I have a automatic transmission thats pretty messed up, it still drives fine, but I have no reverse, or overdrive. i'm pretty sure it needs a new torque converter and valve body also. so I think i'm gonna just swap my engine and tranny for a VG30DETT with 5 speed transmission. I found a set up for $1500. it includes: Motor (with turbos) Transmission (5sp) Uncut Wiring Harness All required Cables ECU Cam angle sensor (CAS) Complete Intake Manifold Alternator A/C (not gonna use) Power Steering Pump All Brackets and Sensors Shiftlinkage now what I need to know is if anyone has any information on what I need for this swap, and just what you think about it I guess. I also found a RB26DETT with tranny and everything for $3,000. but I don't know if its worth that much more. thanks. -Peace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtcookson Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 I'll start with this... are you wanting to make 500+++ hp? If not, neither of those swaps would be worth it at all. If you were set on the swap, I personally prefer the VG over RB. The RB is indeed an incredible engine but so is the VG. The VG though is not only able to make incredible power, but it also seems to be a better street engine. It has much more low end torque, which makes for a much more fun ride on the street. I believe the VG30E(T) is much more reliable than the VG30DE(TT) though and has tons of potential in itself. It can make tons of power... more than enough for the street. Heck, it can even be a race engine. They're also much cheaper than the later VG, cheaper to modify, etc. etc. Check out http://www.redz31.com for tons of good info on the Z31's. I personally think you'd be much better off just using the stock engine and modifying it. You'll save tons of money and still have a fun car. For the $1500 you could do the tranny swap and get some parts to make the car much faster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mark300zxTurbo Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 For the $1500 you could do the tranny swap and get some parts to make the car much faster. faster than a stock VG30DETT? I thought about keeping the VG30ET and just rebuilding it when I have the tranny out anyway. then upgrading the turbo. but I thought it would be cheaper to just drop the VG30DETT and have a more advanced engine with twice as many valves, twice and many cams, twice as may tb's, and twice as many turbos. I've hurd of people taking a stock DETT, getting two upgraded turbo's, and a front mount, and pushing close to 500hp. I guess the question is: would it be cheaper to rebuild and modify a ET to push 500hp, (pluss 5 speed swap) or to go with a DETT. it the ET would only be alittle bit cheaper, I would spend the extra money and get a DETT, mainly for the fact that everything would be a decade newer. man, now I don't know what the hell to do! lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex_V Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 The VG-E is a great platform just like the TT. Really just get some forged pistons and rods and get cams and port the VG-E heads. A bigger turbo and better exaust and chip the stock ecu and your set. Theres no need to get custom with the DETT setup, put that time and money twords freshing up the VG-E with upgraded parts. Alot of guys on maxima.org are running 250-350WHP on stock internals no problem. One guy has been running 300+WHP for a year or more on a stock block, with a bent rod. Id say run the stock engine untill it blows, and in the mean time get a cheap block in the junkyard and slowly build it up and swap it in when the other engine blows. The biggest thing is tuning and not running out of fuel. Keeping the VG-E lets you use that $1500-3000 on supporting mods you'd need either way and this way you already have a leg up on a stock DETT conversion. Bottom line is its a VG. Its though as nails and its strong egnough for you. Just mod what you have. ~Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mark300zxTurbo Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 5 speed transmission swap rebuild kit forged pistons and rods cams bigger turbo exaust chip ...how much would all that cost, and how much power would it give me? that sounds like alot more than $1500. unless you guys got the hook up or something. ...thanks for all the help by the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex_V Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 You dont need to do it all at once,and either VG engine would need similar treatment. Id go with a 5speed swap,3in exaust, chip, injectors in about that order. Its pretty easy and cheap to chip the Z31 ecu so you can tune it and tuning is very important. An auto turbo is smaller then a manual car's turbo so Id swap out for that one if you can find one. Doing the DETT swap would be way over $1500. Chasing the loose ends around will add up quick, along with a new driveshaft (possibly Im not sure) and exuast fabing, and new engine mounts. Id figure on at least 2500-3000 since you cant do that your self (unless your already a good welder) But get started on the 5speed swap and the 5 speed turbo and go from there, start checking out Z31 websites and see the setups you like. ~Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtcookson Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 Yeah, the DETT engine swap would definitely cost much more than $1500. For that kind of money you could definitely make much more than the stock DETT. Here's a very good page on modding info: http://www.redz31.com/turbofaq/turbo.faq.htm An auto turbo is smaller then a manual car's turbo so Id swap out for that one if you can find one. On the Z31 the turbo is the same auto and manual but the TT has smaller turbos on the auto I believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex_V Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 Oh its true for alot of cars I thought I read the z31 was that way as well.... ~Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinjitter Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 On the Z31 the turbo is the same auto and manual but the TT has smaller turbos on the auto I believe. Yes you are correct. The TT swap would cost way more than you think. As someone said above you will need to fab up just about everything just to get the DETT into the engine bay. You would also have to modify the shock towers, firewall and possibly the core support. Then imagine trying to work on it once you get the engine in there. Have you ever looked under the hood of a TT? Now take all of the room under the hood of the TT and minus about 75% of it. The ET is a more than capable engine and as Jason has proven time and again it will produce 500 crank hp or 450 whp reliably. Mind you this is all coming from a guy who has and RB under the hood of his Z31. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mark300zxTurbo Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 You would also have to modify the shock towers, firewall and possibly the core support. are you sure I would have to do that? I mean, its the same black pretty much. just with more badass stuff on it. I thought all I would have to do is make a couple crossmembers (peice of cake) and modify a drive shaft, then have it balanced. all though it would save ALOT of time is I didn't hace to do that. but man, DOHC 24 valve twin turbo just sounds like a better idea than building up a SOHC 12 vlave single turbo. I mean, the VG30DETT has 100hp more stock. 100HP!!! then I could put forged pistons, and rods. and upgrade the turbos. and have more hp then I could ever get out of a VG30ET. damn, I wish I could find sombody who has already done it, so I could see what all I really HAVE to do. do drop one in. I mean. everyone already knows the VG30DETT is way better than the VG30ET, but the question is: "is it worth it" and the only person who can truly ansure it is sombody who has done it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywolf Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 100 horsepower is just a matter of boost...a bigger turbo, an intercooler, and injectors, then some tuning, and you're there (engine-wise). With either engine, you'll need to ensure your chassis is good enough, your brakes are good enough, your steering and suspension are up to the driving you intend to do. A VG30DETT is heavier than a VG30 because it has much larger heads and intake on it. It's wider because of those heads, and the way the twin turbos hang down. Look at how it's wedged into the Z32...even the VG30DE is huge compared to a Z31 VG30E/ET. Now take a tape measure to the engine bay and you'll see what we're saying. If you want to do a swap, this can be done. But if the horsepower is the bottom line, your better bang for the buck is the engine you have: the VG30ET is an excellent platform for upgrades as it is, people already swap them into other cars for this reason (510s, trucks, S30s...). The cost of upgrading your turbo (500-ish?), chipping the ECU (200-ish?), a 5-speed swap ($500-ish?), intercooler (300-ish?)...sure it costs, but you'll need to do a lot of the plumbing and costs to make the DETT parts fit, too, so it's not just a $1500 swap. It's your call and your car, but unless you're looking at a goal of 500+ horsepower, the bang-for-the-buck is in going with the VG30ET, and you'll probably be able to drive it while work progresses, vs. being off the road for the whole time of the conversion. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex_V Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 and have more hp then I could ever get out of a VG30ET. Not true, the VG30E-T can make as much power as a DETT. The DETT just has more power from the factory. The biggest diffrence is the DETT heads are a little better ported from the factory, its got two small turbos and bigger injectors. All that stuff that you would have to fabricate or upgrade any way and start all over. Both engines are capable of well over 500HP, the engine you have now will get you there much quicker. Just take your time do it right and clean up the engine (maybe paint it ) and car and you'll have a kick ass car with lots of HP. ~Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mack Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 actuallyl, the Z31 woudlnt require tht much modding to get a VG twin cam in there. they came stock in japan in the 88 model years. it was called a 300ZR. it had a VG30DET, single turbo. that would be the engine to get if I were you. The VG30ET is a good engine no doubt, but the DE/TT IS that much better. stronger everything and also capable of 2000 more RPM of usable powerband. but then what do I knwo, Im an I6 guy just jumping around forums! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtcookson Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 are you sure I would have to do that? I mean, its the same black pretty much. just with more badass stuff on it. I thought all I would have to do is make a couple crossmembers (peice of cake) and modify a drive shaft, then have it balanced. all though it would save ALOT of time is I didn't hace to do that. but man, DOHC 24 valve twin turbo just sounds like a better idea than building up a SOHC 12 vlave single turbo. I mean, the VG30DETT has 100hp more stock. 100HP!!! then I could put forged pistons, and rods. and upgrade the turbos. and have more hp then I could ever get out of a VG30ET. damn, I wish I could find sombody who has already done it, so I could see what all I really HAVE to do. do drop one in. I mean. everyone already knows the VG30DETT is way better than the VG30ET, but the question is: "is it worth it" and the only person who can truly ansure it is sombody who has done it. The blocks are pretty much the same but as said above, the difference in the head sizes are huge. Double the cams and valves makes for a very wide head, which is also where the big weight difference comes. There's nothing bad about having a SOHC 12 valve engine. Electramotive made a race VG30E using the stock block and head castings. Their engine made over 1,000 hp in the qualifying setup (I've seen claims upwards of 1200 hp in qualifying setup). The SOHC design isn't that bad. Do some good port work and it will flow more than enough as you can tell by the GTP car. Yes, the VG30DETT is an awesome engine. If you were wanting to make a very, very powerful drag car it would probably be the way to go. Though... there's even a VG30ET powered Z31 running 7's so it'll still make a good drag engine as well. http://www.nhrasportcompact.com/2006/drivers/c_febus.html Anyways... I still believe that the VG30ET may be a more reliable engine than the VG30DETT. I'm always seeing TT guys having issues with the engine itself, which I think has something to do with the head design (head gasket issues among other things). The VG30DETT has 8 head bolts per side... the VG30E(T) has 13 per side. As an idea of how much clamping force that is, Buick Grand National guys modify their high power 3.8 liter turbo charged V6's for 12 head bolts per side. The VG has 13 stock. Its a very strong engine and can definitely be made to have some insane power. I don't mean to sound mean or whatever but wanting the DETT just because it has 4 cams and 24 valves is like wanting a Honda just because it has an engine with VTEC... just because it has it doesn't mean its better. The VG30ET has tons of potential and that, to me, outweighs the costs of the VG30DETT swap. Its kind of funny actually... I was thinking of pulling the VG30DE out of my Z32 and putting a VG30ET in it. Less weight, more room to work, tons of power potential, single turbo setup for even more reduced costs compared to a twin turbo setup, etc. etc. It would probably piss off a lot of Z32 guys but I think it would be hilarious because I'd be able to make more power than a lot of those guys without spending a ton of money, my soul, and my first born. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtcookson Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 The VG30ET is a good engine no doubt, but the DE/TT IS that much better. stronger everything and also capable of 2000 more RPM of usable powerband. How is it that much better/stronger? Yes, it does have a forged crank but the block is overall the same as the VG30E. Both have forged rods stock, both have the same crank girdle tieing all of the mains together. The VG30ET actually has a bit better head clamping with its 13 head bolts per side compared to the DETT's 8, I would consider the VG30ET stronger there. Really the only thing the DETT has on the ET is the crank... even then the ET's crank is quite strong. Check my post above to see what the VG30ET is capable of and tell me the DETT is that much better. The DETT does hold a lot of Nissan's records but the VG30ET is still very capable of being an incredibly powerful engine. The VG30ET can easily run up to 7,000 rpm and still have usable power. If you're wanting high end power like that though, design the engine for it and it'll do it. Take the Electramotive engine for instance... it runs up to nearly 9,000 rpm. Hekimian Racing makes a N/A VG30E that makes 300 hp at 7,000 rpm. It all depends on what you're wanting to the car to do and your design goals. I personally wouldn't want a super high redline since I drive my cars on the road mostly. Having more power down low makes the car much easier to drive on the street... that's why I dislike most inline engines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinjitter Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 actuallyl, the Z31 woudlnt require tht much modding to get a VG twin cam in there. they came stock in japan in the 88 model years. it was called a 300ZR. it had a VG30DET, single turbo. that would be the engine to get if I were you. The VG30ET is a good engine no doubt, but the DE/TT IS that much better. stronger everything and also capable of 2000 more RPM of usable powerband. but then what do I knwo, Im an I6 guy just jumping around forums! The 300zr does not come with a VG30DET, it comes with a VG30DE. To locate the turbos in the factory position he will need to modify the strut towers. There is no way around it. The piping will be an issue if he decides to make front mount turbos, or the firewall will be and issue if he decides to make the turbos rear mount, then ground clearance comes into play. Dont get me wrong it can be done, and has been done. But unless you plan on spending more than 10k on the build of the DETT and installation, go with the vg30et. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex_V Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 Mtcookson- I thought the VG30E had a forged crank? I thought some one on maxima.org proved it, and the rods were stronger on the DETT. ~Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtcookson Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 Not that I know of. Unless Nissan changed to a forged crank for the Maxima, its definitely cast. Nissan had in their 300ZX brochure that the VG30E(T) had a "light weight ductile cast iron crank". The rods on the DETT are a little stronger. There've been guys making 300-400 whp on the stock VG30E(T). VG30E(T) non W-block, VG30E(T) W-block, VG30DE(TT)/VE30DE: I need to get some pictures of the rod thickness. I have one but its not very accurate. The DETT rod is slightly thicker than the other two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mark300zxTurbo Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 wow, you guys are full of some great information. I have alot to think about. I think I'm gonna grab some vg heads at a salvage yard, and port and polish them. if it goes well. then get a transmission. I looked up forged internals and they are pretty pricey. I think I might just get a crank out of a maxima, in indeed they had forged cranks. and Z32 rods. then if I find a good deal on forged pistons slap them in there. the only ones that I can find are like $1,000 a set though! anyway, I was doing some research on transmission. and was reading about this guys 300zx with a 240sx transmission. here is what he wrote. "the transmission is out of a 1991 240sx it has better gears and shifts alot smoother than the stock trans did." do they actually have the same transmission at the 300zx? if so, would I be correct to quess that its the FS5R30A? if so that would be so badass! Edit: I did some looking around online and found this: "the FS5W71C found in any 5 speed non turbo Z31. This transmission is internally the same as the transmission used in the 240SX, 180SX, Silvia, etc." does anyone one know if its the same transmission case? or is it just the same internals? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinjitter Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 I did some looking around online and found this: "the FS5W71C found in any 5 speed non turbo Z31. This transmission is internally the same as the transmission used in the 240SX, 180SX, Silvia, etc." does anyone one know if its the same transmission case? or is it just the same internals? It is just the same internals, not the full case. However the sandwich plate in the middle is the same, making the front halves (or bellhousing) interchangeable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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