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OBX vs Quaife (with pixors)


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#21 NZeder

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Posted 16 September 2008 - 01:30 AM

This Australian company manufactures an ATB LSD to fit in the R180 for $850. Can be seen here http://members.optus...five10/diff.htm . Anyone heard of this?

Only catch is finding a later R180 in long nose, well that is the case here in NZ
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#22 Guest_Bob Howard_*

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Posted 22 September 2008 - 06:56 PM

I like this type of LSD, a local 240Z race car uses one and it works very well. I contacted an Ebay vendor a week ago with questions about the OBX unit and have had no response. I don't like it when I contact a sales company to ask questions and they do not answer back. I believe it's best to avoid these dealings.

Cheers,
Bob Howard

#23 cygnusx1

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 07:04 AM

Based on this thread and speaking with others that have used the OBX, I ordered one. I will be putting it into my 280Z R200 next week. I will report on the installation process when I get to it.

#24 JMortensen

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 02:13 PM

Based on this thread and speaking with others that have used the OBX, I ordered one. I will be putting it into my 280Z R200 next week. I will report on the installation process when I get to it.

Out of curiosity, where did you get it?

Jon Mortensen, owner/operator www.petdoorstore.com


#25 cygnusx1

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 01:18 PM

Bought it on ebay from "tuna-tom". It's at home today and I may open it up tonight to swap the washers and clean/debur if needed. First thing I will check is that the 280Z/ZX inner stub axles fit in it...it's an S14 unit for an R200 so they should fit. 29spline 30mm. Hopefully I have enough shims around that I can get the backlash correct.

#26 EMWHYR0HEN

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 02:44 PM

Dave,

I'm also looking at getting one and the stub axles/ half shaft thing is still iffy to me. It would be really helpfull if you could give us some feedback on the situation.
"If you are under control you're going too slow." -Parnelli Jones

#27 fhptom

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 03:38 PM

I just picked up a used Quaife the other day and am waiting for it to get here. Hopefully I will have no problems with it as my friend has had one in his car for awhile and loves the feel of it.

Tom

1974 - 11/74 260Z RLS030-0066841
From rebuilt to stripped out to race...

I Live for a Living....


#28 cygnusx1

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 06:12 PM

I think you are good with the quaiffe. It's just us penny pinchers that need to be concerned about the OBX units. I began taking my OBX apart tonight for a washer change and inspection. Structurally and quality-wise, it seems quite good. The metals used seem very hard. I will check the stubs if I get time. I was told by another member that uses the OBX, that the 280Z and 280ZX inner stubs fit fine. I will double confirm when I can.

Pics on the way

#29 cygnusx1

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 06:46 PM

Posted Image

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OBX WASHERS AS THEY CAME OUT
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#30 cygnusx1

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 08:12 PM

OK I played around with the OBX on the floor of my house (too cold in the garage).

This is how it works.
The large side gears are splined correctly for the 280Z 280ZX inner axle stubs. When forward torque is applied to the ring gear, the left and right side gears are PULLED into eachother, towards the center of the diff. This is due to the spiral (angle) cuts in the gears. Sandwiched between them is the star shaped "clutch" that is filled with spring washers. The spring washers are compressed by the two colliding side gears as the side gears bite onto the central "star" shaped "clutch". On neutral input torque, the spring washers push the side gears back outwards, away from the central "star-clutch" and into the inner walls of the gear case. In reverse torque on the ring gear (engine braking) the side gears are forced outwards into the inner walls of the gear case.

There is also friction created from all the thrusting around of the thinner spiral gears as they press into their pockets and their ends drive into the case walls under pressure.

(point to note: the groove inside the side gears for the axle retainer ring is made extra wide to allow the side gears some side to side action without pulling on the axles)

BOTH decel and accel will produce some level of LSD action.

THE SPRING WASHERS:
They are merely there to keep the outer gears from slopping around during transistions from accel to decel. If the stack is too short, you get slop and the gears rattle. If the stack is too long, you get some preload when you screw the case together and the diff will never act like a FULLY OPEN diff. The spring preload forces the side gears outwards to press against the inner case walls.

NOTE:
If the outermost spring washers are installed (xxxx) the end of the stub axles CAN rub into them. I reccommend installing the outermost washers like this )xxxx(

I chose to assemble with one-washer-thickness of preload. Using the McMaster washers I did this:

))()()((

This makes the diff slightly preloaded with hopes of keeping the slop to a minimum when getting on and off the throttle.


R200 280Z Axle Stubs:
Posted Image

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#31 Careless

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 10:52 AM

I never actually paid any attention to how these diff work until I saw the last pics in your post. seems simple enough. makes it easy to see how the planetary gears move power from one side to the other.

so are you replacing the cap-screw bolts with 12.9 grade?

#32 cygnusx1

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 11:02 AM

These are the screws that came in my unit. ;-)

Posted Image


I don't have a Quaife to study, but from all the cutaway's I see, the OBX and the Quaife work oppositely. The OBX forces the side gears toward eachother under acceleration and the Quaife forces the side gears apart during acceleration. This might have gotten them around any patents that might be involved.

If my assumptions are correct, and I very well could be wrong, then OBX should have put the bellville springs outside of the side gears, forcing them inwards to take up slack. This design reversal could explain the abuse imposed upon the OBX washers and the slack felt in some peoples driveline when going from accel to decel.

NOTE THE OPPOSITE ANGLE OF THE SIDE GEAR TEETH:
OBX
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Quaife
Posted Image

#33 JMortensen

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 11:31 AM

I don't have a Quaife to study, but from all the cutaway's I see, the OBX and the Quaife work oppositely. The OBX forces the side gears toward eachother under acceleration and the Quaife forces the side gears apart during acceleration. This might have gotten them around any patents that might be involved.

I'm having a hard time with this, and I'll tell you why. Dana's helical LSD the True-trac comes in a "front" and "rear" version for the Dana 30 (front might be for a Jeep front diff, rear might be for a Volvo sedan). The difference is that the gears are flipped around, and that's the only difference. In fact, I've flipped them for a customer who needed one right away when I sold diff parts. The lockup on the diff should come from the side gears and helical gears driving into the ends of the case and also from the teeth of the helicals wearing on the case too. I had a .pdf that had breakaway pictures and showed torque vectors and all sorts of cool stuff, but I no longer have it and can't find it online. I think Drax240z posted one for the torsen LSD as well.

I did quote part of both .pdfs in this thread: http://forums.hybrid...ead.php?t=93879

Here are a couple of excerpts:

The Truetrac can transfer up to 3.5 times more torque to the high traction wheel. This torque transfer ratio (called the bias ratio) is accomplished by using helical side gears and pinions. The bias ratio is the result of the pressure exerted by the side gears and pinions against the surface of the differential case. In certain applications, this normal gear engagement may produce temporary driver feedback.


The characteristic of torque bias is achieved in a very simple way. It is well known that frictional forces are determined by the product of the coefficient of friction of a given surface and the normal force applied to that surface. Frictional torque, of course, is merely the application of that normal force at an effective frictional radius. All of the forces which are active within the differential are derivable from the torque which is being conveyed by the differential and the friction coefficients of surfaces within the differential. Therefore, all of the frictional forces which are generated within the differential, and all of the resulting resistant torques which oppose the transfer of torque between drive axles, are proportional to the torque being conveyed by the differential. Since the maximum difference in torque between drive axles which can be supported by friction is proportional to the combined torque of the drive axles, the maximum bias ratio remains constant with respect to changes in the combined drive axle torques.

In addition to providing a geared interconnection between drive axles which permits the usual opposite relative rotation between the drive axles, the gearing also distributes forces which may be generated to resist differentiation over a large number of different surfaces within the differential. The surfaces over which the Invex gearing distributes forces are designed with different coefficients of friction and the Invex gearing is designed to distribute different loads between the surfaces. Collectively, the surfaces and the gearing are designed to distribute wear evenly over the surfaces and to control the overall amount of friction within the differential needed to achieve a desired bias ratio.

This section of the paper provides a mathematical representation of the basic frictional relationships within a Torsen differential which are responsible for achieving the bias characteristic between drive axles. The mathematical representation assumes that the direction of torque transfer through the differential is from a vehicle's engine to the drive axles. Figure 4 may be again referred to for identifying differential components mentioned in this section. However, specific forces and torques which are mentioned in this section are illustrated in Figure 5 in association with a schematic depiction of key differential components.

Engine torque applied to the ring gear (Trg) is substantially equal in magnitude to the sum of reaction torques which are developed at each drive axle (T1, T2). The engine torque is transferred to the drive axles through
(a) the differential housing which supports the ring gear and (B) the Invex gearing which is carried within the housing and interconnects the drive axles for equal but opposite directions of relative rotation with respect to the housing.

Thus, in addition to transferring torque from the differential housing to the drive axles, the Invex gearing also provides a rotational interconnection between drive axles which may be understood to function as a gear train for transferring torque between drive axles. Gear trains, of course, develop various reactions at gear meshes and mounting surfaces which generate friction opposing rotation of the train in proportion to the torque being carried by the train. Since all of the engine torque which is transferred to the drive axles is carried by the Invex gearing, reaction torque which opposes rotation of the Invex gearing is proportional to the engine torque which is transferred to the drive wheels. Thus, the transfer of torque between drive axles is also resisted in proportion to the transfer of torque between the engine and drive axles.

This feature enables the Torsen differential to support a torque imbalance between drive axles which contributes to the total amount of torque which can he transferred from the engine to the drive axles when the amount of torque which can be supported in one of the drive axles is limited by available traction. The major frictional interfaces which are responsible for supporting a torque difference between drive axles are listed below along with parenthetically enclosed symbols representing the coefficients of friction of the respective interfaces.

Side gear to element gear Invex gear meshes (µ1,)
Element gear faces to differential housing (µ2)
Side gear face to side gear face (µ3)
Side gear face to differential housing (µ4)
Typically, the largest reaction forces within the differential are side gear thrust forces (Fa1 , Fa2)
resulting from normal tooth loads (F1 , F2) acting at the side gear to element gear Invex tooth
meshes. The reaction forces are related to the normal tooth loads according to the following
equation:

Fa1 , Fa2 = (F1 , F2) x Cos ø x Cos ß

where 'ø' is the tooth normal pressure angle and 'ß' is the side gear helix angle.

These reaction forces are opposed by the respective frictional interfaces associated with the end
faces of the side gears and result in the generation frictional torques (Tf3 , Tf4) which oppose side gear rotation. These frictional torques are related to the reaction forces according to the following equation:

Tf3 , Tf4 = (Fa1 , Fa2) x (R3 , R4) x (µ3 , µ4)


where 'R3' and 'R4' are the effective friction radii at the respective side gear interfaces.

Frictional torques (Tf5 , Tf6) are developed at the respective interfaces between the element gears and differential housing. These frictional torques are also developed as a result of reaction forces at the side gear to element gear meshes, but the reaction forces being considered here are those which are directed along the respective axes of the element gears. These reaction forces (Fb1 , Fb2) are related to the normal tooth loads according to the following equation:

Fb1 , Fb2 = (F1 , F2) x Cos ø x Cos ß

The above-mentioned frictional torques (Tf5 , Tf6) are related to the reaction forces (Fb1 , Fb2)
according to the following equation:

Tf5 , Tf6 = (Fb1 , Fb2) x (R5 , R6) x (µ5 , µ6)

where 'R5' and 'R6' are the effective friction radii at the respective element gear to housing interfaces.

In addition to the frictional torques developed at the Invex gearing mounting surfaces, sliding contact between the side gears and element gears at the respective Invex gear meshes also produces frictional torques which contribute to supporting a torque division between drive axles. The respective friction forces at the Invex gear meshes may be represented as:

Fc , Fd = (F1 , F2) x (µ1)

The resulting frictional torques (Tf1 , Tf2) opposed to side gear rotation is related to mesh friction as follows:

Tf1 , Tf2 = (Fc , Fd) x R x Sin ø x Sin ß

where 'R' is the pitch radius of the respective side gears.

Therefore, the maximum difference torque which can be supported between drive axles is related to each of the above-equated frictional torques as follows:

T1 - T2 = Tf1 + Tf2 + Tf3 + Tf4 + (R / Rc) x (Tf5 + Tf6)

where 'Rc' is the pitch radius of the combination gears.

Letting the torque difference between drive axles (T1 - T2) be represented by 'Td', it follows that:

T1 = (Trg + Td) / 2, and
T2 = (Trg - Td) / 2

From this, the maximum ratio of torque which can be supported between drive axles (i.e., bias ratio) is expressed by the following proportion:

torque bias = T1 / T2 : 1

An alternative way of referring to drive axle torque distributions is by the term 'percent locking'. This term may be mathematically expressed as follows:

percent locking = (Td / Trg) x 100

Figure 6 shows the relationship between torque bias and percent locking over a range of comparable values of each.

S E CHOCHOLEK, BSME
Gleason Corporation, Rochester, New York, United States of America

In the Torsen, the gears pushed on each other during decel. They pushed on the case on accel. On the truetrac they push on the case on accel and don't get loaded on decel.

Jon Mortensen, owner/operator www.petdoorstore.com


#34 JMortensen

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 12:21 PM

Found some info on the torsen site:
http://www.torsen.co...ts/products.htm
This one looks roughly analogous to the OBX:
http://www.torsen.co...oducts/T-2R.htm

Jon Mortensen, owner/operator www.petdoorstore.com


#35 EMWHYR0HEN

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 01:06 PM

Thanks for sharing your pics/info. Looks like i'll be getting one as well. Unless I can find a 3.7CLSD before then....
"If you are under control you're going too slow." -Parnelli Jones

#36 JMortensen

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 03:13 PM

Another thought:
If I'm right about flipping the gears, that may explain why people are wasting the washers. Instead of them getting squeezed on decel where the lockup is less or none, they're getting hit on accel...

Flip the side gears and the worm gears around and it should work the opposite way. Assuming you have it right and it is squeezing the gears together under accel of course...

Jon Mortensen, owner/operator www.petdoorstore.com


#37 cygnusx1

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 04:03 PM

Another thought:
If I'm right about flipping the gears, that may explain why people are wasting the washers. Instead of them getting squeezed on decel where the lockup is less or none, they're getting hit on accel...

Flip the side gears and the worm gears around and it should work the opposite way. Assuming you have it right and it is squeezing the gears together under accel of course...



Bingo...what I was saying. But can you really just flip the gears? It's like putting a propeller on the boat backwards. The boat still goes forwards? No? lol

#38 JMortensen

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 04:28 PM

Flip the side gears and flip the helicals. That's it as I recall.

Jon Mortensen, owner/operator www.petdoorstore.com


#39 JMortensen

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 04:46 PM

This kind of ♥♥♥♥ always screws me up, so here's what I did. Saved your pic, opened it in Windows Picture Viewer, and flipped it 180 degrees. When you do this you can see that the gear patterns go the opposite way, so the side gears will drive the worms in the opposite direction.

Jon Mortensen, owner/operator www.petdoorstore.com


#40 cygnusx1

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 05:12 PM

Holy Hopping Snot! I swapped the positions of the helicals and the side gears left to right and now the OBX thrusts OUTWARDS during acceleration! NOW it makes sense! This way it wont bash the washers when you punch the throttle. The only thing the washers will see is pressure from heavy engine breaking. I think this is the ULTIMATE solution to make the OBX function like the Quaife. Albeit probably not as smoothly and as durable but MUCH better than when the gearsets were backwards!




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