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Suspension Tech / Motion Ratio / Unsprung Weight


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#1 tholt

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 08:10 AM

Has anyone calculated the motion ratio of the front and rear suspension on a 280Z and obtained an answer that you are have confidence in the accuracy?

Using a tape measure in the rear I have calculated a .82 MR. Measuring from the pivot to the base of the strut and from the pivot to the hub face (assuming zero offset wheels).

Using suspension analysis software (Mitchell's WinGeo), it shows a ratio of 1.142, which I assume is the inverse, so that would be .876

Does anyone have a good answer for comparison? How about a good sketch showing proper measurement and calculation? I need to go buy a book or two, but I want answers now! :-P

I am planning to do some shock dyno testing and trying to get the suspensions natural frequency...

Thanks in advance.

Tom
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#2 johnc

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 08:26 AM

Erik Messley has all that information in Mitchel's software. I'll see if I can get the file for you and send it over. Right now, using my memory, I had calculated a .98 front and a .97 rear motion ratio (to the center of the contact patch) on my 240Z running:

1. 275/45-16 tires on 16 x 10 rims with 6" of backspace.
2. No wheel spacers.
3. 8 degrees of postive caster.

Again, those numbers are from memory so they are suspect. We did this a while ago and we used the centerline of the contact patch for a reason I don't remember right now.
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#3 tube80z

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 08:32 AM

we used the centerline of the contact patch for a reason I don't remember right now.


It changes the motion ratio.
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#4 johnc

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 08:40 AM

It changes the motion ratio.


Yeah, I know that. But I can't remember why we went with the contact patch over the ball joint pivot.

BTW... I just ordered the full Mitchell ProLine/Advanced software package. I've been wanting to for a while and this post got me off my ass. I have two 240Zs in the shop for complete suspension builds so I'll take the time and carefully measure everything.
----- John Coffey, Fabricator at Benton Performance, LLC

#5 tube80z

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 08:42 AM

HI am planning to do some shock dyno testing and trying to get the suspensions natural frequency...


I used to do this all from calculation but I found a really cool method to do a direct measurement on the car. You need to remove the shocks (and what I've done is use a set of old modified stock struts with no oil). You put these in and then then lock the opposite end of the car. Then you bounce the end your interested in.

Here's a video of the process in action (bounce test) http://www.racing-ca...chnology.com.au. What's cool about this process is you get friction effects included and can see how this changes with friction.

For a direct measurement of motion ratio all you need to do is measure the change in strut shaft length as compress or extend the suspension. I have a bunch of quarter in AL chunks I use under the suspension to make the change. The ratio is not linear and if you're doing shock work that may make a difference.

In general I've found a number of ways to measure the car directly and found this gives more realistic results than calculation. Billy Shope has some procedures based on Miliken's book using scales and a floor jack. You can read about them here, http://home.earthlin...hope/index.html

Cary
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#6 tube80z

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 10:04 AM

Yeah, I know that. But I can't remember why we went with the contact patch over the ball joint pivot.


Because you were interested in the spring rate at the contact patch. My guess is Erik was doing calculations for wheel or axle percentages when setting the car up.

BTW... I just ordered the full Mitchell ProLine/Advanced software package. I've been wanting to for a while and this post got me off my ass. I have two 240Zs in the shop for complete suspension builds so I'll take the time and carefully measure everything.


Cool, I can't wait to see what you find.

Cary
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#7 blueovalz

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 11:42 AM

Wouldn't this number simply be the COS of the kingpin inclination, which is 13º. This comes to .974 for the rear. The front though has to also incorporate the caster angle which means a smaller ratio of (just a guess on this one) .965.

#8 74_5.0L_Z

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 08:57 AM

I just came in from the garage. Since I had the car up and the springs removed, I decided to measure the motion ratios of the front and rear suspension. I did this as follows:

1. Jack and level the car.
2. Remove springs and reinstall strut.
3. Let strut go to full droop and perform following measurements.
---a. Measure from ground to center of hub.
---b. Measure length of shock tube to line on bump stop.
4. Jack wheel up 1/2 and perform following measurements:
---a. Measure from ground to center of hub.
---b. Measure length of shock tube to line on bump stop.
5. Repeat step 4 seven times to get measurements through the range of travel.
6. Graph shock measurements versus hub measurements.
7. Fit regression line and get slope (inches of shock travel/inch of hub travel).


For the rear, I came up with a motion ratio of 0.882.
For the front, I came up with a motion ratio of 0.904.

The suspension ratios at the center of the tire contact patch are related to the ratio at the center of the hub by a constant that is equal to one for wheels that have a zero offset.

My suspension is modified as follows:
Front:
Stock length lower control arms (fitted with inboard spherical bearings)
Shortened strut to fit Koni 8610-1149 insert.
Lower Control arm pivot point moved up 3/4" and out 1/4".
Top of strut tower moved back ~3/4"
1" bump steer spacer
Ground Control camber plates.

Rear:
Custom rear control arm adjusted 1/4" longer than stock
Eccentric camber bushings adjusted equally to maximum negative camber.
Shortened strut to fit Koni 8610-1437race insert.
Ground Control camber plates.

Though my suspension is fairly heavily modified, none of the modifications will have a huge affect on the motion ratios.

#9 JMortensen

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 10:11 AM

So uhh... since you're out there measuring... would it be easy for you to measure the motion ratio of the swaybar(s)? Can't remember if you have a rear bar or not...

Jon Mortensen, owner/operator www.petdoorstore.com


#10 blueovalz

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 10:24 AM

Can you post a graph? I'm curious how the angle of the CA effects the ratio (e.g. is the ratio different at full droop verses full compression). Is this number an average thoughout the entire range?

#11 74_5.0L_Z

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 10:25 AM

I'll have to measure that tomorrow (or this weekend). I'm getting ready to go to bed. I have to be back at work at 1 am. I'm on third shift all week until we get Atlantis off the pad.

#12 74_5.0L_Z

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 10:41 AM

Here are the graphs:

Posted Image

Posted Image

As you can see the motion ratios are quite constant (the slope is constant) over the range that I measured.

#13 blueovalz

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 12:39 PM

That's pretty linear all right!

#14 cygnusx1

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 12:52 PM

I don't see how it could be non-linear unless the angle between the spring/strut travel and the control arm was really far off from 90 deg. Even then it would only have a slight curve, especially in such a short swing range. No?

So I feel like I have contributed something, here is a spring calculator that might come in handy.

http://www.efunda.co...signer.cfm#calc

#15 74_5.0L_Z

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 01:52 PM

Today, I spent the entire day in the garage weighing and measuring suspension components. This is all in an effort to quantify my unspung weight and also to get a good handle on my instant centers. I'll publish my results for the unspung weight here:

Front:
Group A:
Strut housing with hub, lug nuts, and brake disc_________31.0 lbs
Ball joint and steering arm ___________________________2.6 lbs
Wheel and tire (Hoosier A3S04 245/45/16)______________39.6 lbs
Caliper and pads (Outlaw 2800 caliper w/Hawk 237 HP+) __4.5 lbs

Group B:
Lower Control Arm __________________________________2.4 lbs
T/C Rod Assembly __________________________________2.8 lbs
Strut Insert (Koni 8610-1149) ________________________4.3 lbs
Tie rod ___________________________________________1.4 lbs
Spring (Eibach 10" x 2.5" x 200 lb) ____________________2.9 lbs

To get the total front unsprung weight for one corner you sum the items in Group A and add half of the sum of the items in Group B. The total for the front is 82.5 lbs.

Rear:
Group A:
Strut Housing with brake rotor, stub axle, spindle pin, CV adapter,caliper adapter, and lug nuts.__________________________________________________42 lbs
wheel and tire (Hoosier A3S04 245/45/16) ___________________39.6 lbs
Caliper and pads (Outlaw 2800 caliper w/Hawk 237 HP+) ________4.5 lbs


Group B:
Strut insert (Koni 8610-1437race) __________________________4 lbs
Rear Half Shaft (300 ZX turbo) ____________________________14.7 lbs
Rear Control arm (Custom tubular) _________________________ 7.5 lbs
Spring (Eibach 10" x 2.5" x 250 lb) __________________________3.1 lbs

To get the total rear unsprung weight for one corner you sum the items in Group A and add half of the sum of the items in Group B. The total for the rear is 100.75 lbs.:shock:

#16 blueovalz

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 08:01 PM

The strut weight really surprises me, BUT my C5 rotors on the front weigh 25 lbs just by themselves.

#17 74_5.0L_Z

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 08:49 PM

I was pretty surprized as well.

As you can see, the wheel/tire and the brake rotors are the heavy hitters.

#18 JIM73240Z

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 10:05 PM

nice. i think the unsprung weight might be a little closer if you weigh the swing arms ect. by fixing the hinge area and weighing them. some objects may be heavier at one end than the other making the unsprung weight more or less depending on where the majority of the weight is at. just my .02. good going though.

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#19 74_5.0L_Z

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Posted 10 February 2008 - 05:33 AM

The weight of the Group B items is divided by two because one end is fixed to the sprung mass, and the other is moving with the unsprung mass. The approximation of 1/2 applied for the Group B items (control arms, half shafts, tie rod) assumes symmetry and introduces a small error for items whose mass is not evenly distributed. Fortunately,(or unfortunately) the weights all of the Group B items are small compared to the Group A items. All of the Group A items are 100% unsprung, and no approximation was necessary. The error from approximation of the Group B items is very small compared to the overall unsprung mass.

#20 JMortensen

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Posted 10 February 2008 - 09:28 AM

Dan, what's your next move? If it's going to be another really important measure or weigh in of some part of the suspension, can you do it here? I think I'm going to merge this thread with the motion ratio thread eventually and give it a title like motion ratio / unsprung weight / etc. These are the types of questions that one has a very hard time finding answers to and they become increasingly necessary when you're ready to get really serious. Thanks for sharing this really valuable info with the rest of us.

Jon Mortensen, owner/operator www.petdoorstore.com





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