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DIY 180 Degree/Single plane/Flat plane V-8 crankshaft…


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#41 BRAAP

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Posted 09 October 2008 - 05:07 PM

What trans are you guys planning to use?


For my particular project, I prefer a manual trans and I’m thinking Borg Warner T-5, WC probably, though a non-WC might hold up just fine. With the small displacement, this engine wont produce gobs of torque in N/A trim, allowing the use of lighter trannies, i.e. don’t need a T-56 or ZF-6 for strength reasons. The thought of the Datsun 5 speed also crossed my mind. It would hold up to this engines torque level, (in N/A trim at least), and with a custom crank, the flywheel flange can be machined to accept pretty much any flywheel. In not using a GM or Ford tranny, we would have to build an adapter or modify the bell housing for that tranny to bolt it up.

Another option, (great topic for a different thread, NOT this one), is using an automatic tranny converted to semi manual, (manual-matic), with paddle shifters or a slap stick style console shifter.

#42 BRAAP

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Posted 09 October 2008 - 05:18 PM

Braap, we have built custom billet cranks for guys before. Its doable on a 4 jaw lathe, but very time consuming. I am building a program actually for my CNC 4th axis mill, for a straight eight buick crankshaft, that is a nine main bearing crank, as they were 5 from the factory.


Bryan,
Hmmm.. This is good to know…

If you don’t mind, I have a couple questions?
Approx how many hours are involved in manually turning a V-8 crank?
What material have you used and do you prefer to use for a custom crank?

#43 BRAAP

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Posted 10 October 2008 - 03:37 PM

More inspiration…

Formula SAE project. Entire short block and transaxle built from scratch! 554cc V-8, single plane crank, 16,500 RPM, Kawasaki 250cc four cylinder heads. I posted several more pics of the engine over in the Exotic Sounding High RPM V-8 thread…

Pics courtesy of Western Washington Universtiy F-SAE team.
Posted Image

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“Small” video of it running on the dyno…
http://dot.etec.wwu....s/vik30dyno.mpg

#44 351freak

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Posted 10 October 2008 - 05:19 PM

Paul...

Great news for YOU...not me...

I will PM you the details.

1st...my block deal is turning into a nitemare...the sales manager now is who I am speaking with...and even HE can't confirm that there are ANY of the 52 some odd blocks that are usable with a 3.4" stroke. (Honestly...did this company just f#ck up over $100,000 of inventory on a "milling error" before someone cought it...??? ) I will wait to hear back. There are 3 different part numbers covering 10+ different inventory locations...so hopefully someone just hasn't checked them all. We'll see.

On the cranks...
Jackpot...I just found YOU 2 flavors to choose from... a 2.75" stroke and a 2.87" stroke...straight from the Ford Indy program. Brand new cranks for the picking at the mind numbing price of $1,000 / each. No strings attached. And I was told that these exhibit no harmonics thru 9,500 rpm. Designed for the good ole 302 block. 43 pounds each. Use a 5.5" rod with a 2" Chevy pin diameter and width (fairly common combo). Of course you can do whatever rod/piston makes you happy.
My 3.4" stroke is uncharted territory and I was told to expect a rattle box from Hell unless there's more to it...we'll see next week...got some more calls to make.

and...

I was also told that there really isn't any "benefit" to going 180 crank vs. 180 headers..and the 180 crank way is going to cost more in the long run...

BTW...here is a modern Vette with 180 headers...standard crank...



pretty much the exact same sound...

Because of my stroke issues, I may be going 180 headers instead...we'll see.

(side note...my Tranny is an electronically controlled Ford 4R70W (wide ratio AODE) that is fully programmable via stand-alone box and included paddle shift mode...thank you Baumann TCS)

http://www.becontrol...ctronicscat.htm

Paul...check your PM's...

#45 kiwi303

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Posted 13 October 2008 - 01:57 AM

Another option, (great topic for a different thread, NOT this one), is using an automatic tranny converted to semi manual, (manual-matic), with paddle shifters or a slap stick style console shifter.


Until a new thread gets started, I was browsing around trademe (the NZ Ebay) looking at what gearboxes to fit the rover engine I'm getting, and saw the old 3 speed side shift ford Falcon boxes, and what crossed my mind was that a few air rams, one for the cluch master cyl, one each for the 2 throw leavers, and a electronics major at the local polytech to make a controller, and you'd have an auto paddle box made out of a manual.



Back on the flat plane topic, I've still had no response from the auckland foundary, so I may have to actually pick up the phone and call the buggers if they don't answer their emails... I hate that, being deaf is a bit of a problem with phone conversations :P

#46 BRAAP

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Posted 13 October 2008 - 10:14 AM

Paul...

Great news for YOU...not me...
On the cranks...
Jackpot...I just found YOU 2 flavors to choose from... a 2.75" stroke and a 2.87" stroke...straight from the Ford Indy program. Brand new cranks for the picking at the mind numbing price of $1,000 / each. No strings attached. And I was told that these exhibit no harmonics thru 9,500 rpm. Designed for the good ole 302 block. 43 pounds each. Use a 5.5" rod with a 2" Chevy pin diameter and width (fairly common combo). Of course you can do whatever rod/piston makes you happy.
My 3.4" stroke is uncharted territory and I was told to expect a rattle box from Hell unless there's more to it...we'll see next week...got some more calls to make.



COOL!!! Thank you for the news.. That is good to know..



Paul...
and...

I was also told that there really isn't any "benefit" to going 180 crank vs. 180 headers..and the 180 crank way is going to cost more in the long run...

BTW...here is a modern Vette with 180 headers...standard crank...



pretty much the exact same sound...

Because of my stroke issues, I may be going 180 headers instead...we'll see.

...



I agree the 180 degree header would be the better way to go in that it allows the smoothness of the dual plane crank, (and cost since they are so plentiful). That video definitely a smoother note than the typical domestic V-8 exhaust for sure. Has a growl to it, sort of like the VG30DE and American V-6’s, just missing that high pitch whine we hear in the Ferraris note.

In digging for more 180 degree header sound clips, I found quite a few Panterras, original GT-40’s as well as kits, and all of them have a smoother exhaust note for sure, not the crisp high pitch BRAAAP of the single plane Ferraris. Somewhere half way between. I would think if the primaries were equal length like those on the original GT40’s, the exhaust note should be exactly the same as the single plane crank variants. Maybe we are also hearing the induction sound loud enough mixing with the exhaust? With a dual plane V8 intake on dual plane crank, the induction sound would be smoother, with the single plane intake, the induction noise could carry that coarseness.. .
At any rate, this SBC with a 180 degree header, (to my ear), came the closest to the note we are looking for of the videos I listened to.



If this one revved 1-2k more RPM… Hmmmm…..

#47 jerryb

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Posted 13 October 2008 - 04:14 PM

Im afraid not...to me.....the Ferrari sound is higher pitched and more sexy. The SBC just doesnt cut it. But perhaps its the entire package...more valves....more cams...the right crank and the best stoke bore ratio.

I guess Im asking this ....will a crank alone achive your goal?

COOL!!! Thank you for the news.. That is good to know..

At any rate, this SBC with a 180 degree header, (to my ear), came the closest to the note we are looking for of the videos I listened to.



If this one revved 1-2k more RPM… Hmmmm…..


Jerry

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#48 fastzcars

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Posted 14 October 2008 - 02:12 PM

Since we are thinking outside of the box here, I was looking around on the net and found this on a SPRINGLESS valvetrain for a SBC? No RPM limit/harmonics/valve float? what do you think paul? http://www.decuireng...nglessvalve.php
Keep the rubber side down.

#49 BRAAP

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Posted 14 October 2008 - 03:46 PM

Since we are thinking outside of the box here, I was looking around on the net and found this on a SPRINGLESS valvetrain for a SBC? No RPM limit/harmonics/valve float? what do you think paul? http://www.decuireng...nglessvalve.php


TOTALLY COOL!
My only skepticism is how the valve event looks when graphed out against crankshaft rotation, i.e. valve lift under the curve? It would be nice to plot out the valve lift at various crankshaft degrees.

The picture shows a round eccentric which to me indicates the rate of lift, amount of lift, etc is entirely dictated by the amount of duration, i.e. offset of the eccentric. Also would indicate a lazy valve opening and closing. Most of the performance/efficiency loss is probably offset by the lack of valve spring, question then becomes how is the power band compromised due to that?

Wonder if TonyD has any experience with this or would care to offer his opinion? This seems right up his alley... :icon14:

Pic courtesy of decuirenginetechnologies.com
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#50 BRAAP

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Posted 14 October 2008 - 03:53 PM

Im afraid not...to me.....the Ferrari sound is higher pitched and more sexy. The SBC just doesnt cut it. But perhaps its the entire package...more valves....more cams...the right crank and the best stoke bore ratio.

I guess Im asking this ....will a crank alone achive your goal?


Short answer is, YES.
Timing noise if gear driven will add a noticeable whine, but the Ferrari “exhaust” note would be duplicated with the same exhaust components and overall pipe lengths matched or close in length.
The number of valves and number of cams does not affect the exhaust note. It is the timing of when the exhaust pulses are let out of the cylinders as they meet up in the rest of the exhaust system, and the over all length of the exhaust system from the valve to exhaust tip, that will affect the exhaust note and its pitch. Shorter overall length, higher overall pitch.

#51 fastzcars

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Posted 14 October 2008 - 04:44 PM

The picture shows a round eccentric which to me indicates the rate of lift, amount of lift, etc is entirely dictated by the amount of duration, i.e. offset of the eccentric. Also would indicate a lazy valve opening and closing. Most of the performance/efficiency loss is probably offset by the lack of valve spring, question then becomes how is the power band compromised due to that?

I believe the picture is a OHC 4 cylinder, possibly a ford. The SBC system is viewed on the second video.
Keep the rubber side down.

#52 jerryb

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Posted 26 October 2008 - 09:21 AM

During this mornings search for Bike engined cars I came across this web site http://www.h1v8.com/...age/1562068.htm

It sounds more or less like what you are tring to accomplish....right down to the crank configuration. For what its worth they will be going into production early next year and I expect price will drop much below the current $30K. In my mind ...the best part about this 2.8L powerplant..is it weighs only 150 pounds.

Oh ya...go here as well... www.dpcars.net/home/intro.htm for an actual installation.
Jerry

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When you turn your car on...does it return the favour?

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#53 BRAAP

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Posted 26 October 2008 - 03:35 PM

The Hartley V-8 is an incredible little power plant. Been following it and Dennis Palatov's awesome creation in the second link, for about two years now.

Posted Image

The Hartley is cool and meets the intended final goal of sound and power, but it is already done, defeating the purpose of building this ourselves. I would much rather keep discussion here, to building one of our own rather than purchasing a complete engine already done. ;-)

#54 josh817

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Posted 27 October 2008 - 12:26 AM

Saw your springless valvetrain and thought I'd post this hoping you haven't seen it yet... Ever since I saw it last week, I've been wanting to get a hold of the dude and talk about our L6 motors. >_> You know... just dreaming about the possibilities and all.

They seem to run just fine. Its a rather brilliant idea. The top end always seems to be more complicated than the bottom for me so I'm betting with this sort of system, the only thing holding you back is the mass of your rotating asembly and its integrity... oh and your will power because I would have pulled out a hammer by now. :/

OHC:

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1972 240Z -- 1971 521 Pickup -- 1968 BMW 2002
 


#55 BRAAP

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Posted 31 October 2008 - 08:41 AM

Just a quick update.
I was able to get in touch with the world renowned engine builder, Mr. David Vizard, he read through this thread and we spent just over an hour and a half on the phone. WOW, very enlightening conversation as he shared his knowledge and his experience regarding this topic and fueled my desire to continue on with this project! (love the English accent). After talking to Mr. Vizard, a few changes will most likely come about such as stroke, less RPM. Cam lobe specs are NOT an issue! A few other small details were discussed, all of which I will post about later.


In short, this project is realistic and still on my mind, 351freak is also on track for a Ford version.

351freak, you did receive my E-mail 2 weeks ago? ;-)

#56 KillerBjt

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Posted 31 October 2008 - 12:37 PM

so your saying longer stroke, and less RPM for the final engine? could you explain what he said that made you change your mind?

#57 BRAAP

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Posted 01 November 2008 - 05:59 PM

The change of mind came about by the ability to meet my intended goal with a single plane crank without exceeding 8000 RPM, so why not build as much stroke as 7500-8000 RPM will handle using over the counter engine internals, i.e. more displacement vs my original deign, i.e. more torque!

I’m not going to get into much of the details of our discussion as of yet. Will have a dedicated post later on, (maybe weeks, or a month or six).

#58 BRAAP

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Posted 01 November 2008 - 06:05 PM

Alrighty…..

Did some more research regarding the exact exhaust note/tone I’m trying to achieve. Found these motivational speakers offering their testimony on the subject…

This is a 2 minute speech on why I need to this...


Here is another motivational speaker same family of speakers, probably his brother? He only needs 47 seconds to convey his message…


49 seconds of pure heaven...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASdYH7uLN4Y

Edited by BRAAP, 16 July 2009 - 08:57 AM.


#59 TravRMK

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Posted 02 November 2008 - 12:57 PM

I Love the sound of those motivational speakers!

#60 351freak

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 12:27 PM

Well...I'm back...
No good news to tell, though.

The block deal fell thru. All of the 50+ blocks were fubar. And with no job, I cant raid the savings anymore for a custom crank and pistons.

The small stroke cranks we found for a grand just wont cut it for my application. I cannot give up displacement for rpm. This is going to be as nasty of a naturally aspirated angine as I can make with the heads that I have...and that means about 600HP at the crank...and you just cant do it with a sub 3" stroke without much more expensive parts...and lots of rpm (which the tranny can't handle anyway).

So that's it for me...I'm out.

I have a new Boss 302 block coming this week and will be moving all my parts from the stock block over.

The plan now will be to look at the 180 degree header design and a 180 degree intake with 2 separate plenums as well. I may be able to tune the intake and exhaust to 2 separate points per bank...since I will have a long pair of exhaust pipes and a short pair...I can do the same thing with a sheetmetal intake. Hmmm...1 point at torque peak and the other at HP peak...???

And do I tune the intake AND exhaust of the same cylinder to the same rpm point ...or do I tune the intake and exhaust to different points to give a better "average" fill...???

Will have plenty of math to do when the welder gets fired up.

I'll still lurk here to see what's going on and to give updates as I go...

-David




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