Daeron Posted March 11, 2010 Share Posted March 11, 2010 (edited) This thread is all greek to me, but I love the single-cam engine getting the love... I may be mistaken (I could never answer my question 100% on the page I was looking at) but the IMSA champion car, that Geoff Brabham drove back in 89 and 90 et cetera, was running a DE-stroked, 2.5 liter single cam VG TT that made like 1000 horsepower. This was a website that was a sale ad for a huge lot of engine parts that went back to the Electramotive team... We interrupt this post for this link http://www.nissanracingengines.com.au/ I had to check to see which Electramotive to use, whether I meant ElectrO or ElectrA, and in googling to find my answer I found the website I was referencing. Ever since I saw that 4-5 years ago, I've been falling in love. After learning about high-quench head design, doing the head job on my Soobie EA82 engine (9.8:1 compression) and comparing the CCs on the Soobie heads to the CCs in the VG30 heads....it was all over... Edited March 11, 2010 by Daeron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoov100 Posted August 14, 2010 Share Posted August 14, 2010 One last thing for this thread, It would probably be easiest to machine the block down around the perimeter of the oil pump mounting surface and making an adapter plate that correctly spaces the TT oil pump out on the crank and allows an unmodified TT oil pump to bolt on to the vg33 block. Another option I have heard, is to use a vh45 oil pump placed in the vg oil pan and run it with a chain off the crank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted August 15, 2010 Author Share Posted August 15, 2010 Yeh, going to see what the machinist says about fixing the oil pump mounting base so a Z32 oil pump will bolt on satisfactorily. At the moment some sort of liquid metal filler fix is preferred, given that it will be under compression and the two mounting bolts in question can be tapped through the filler into the block itself. I'm thinking if the filler stands up to machining OK, it will have to be machined flush with the block face, then it will be fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoov100 Posted August 15, 2010 Share Posted August 15, 2010 Yeh, going to see what the machinist says about fixing the oil pump mounting base so a Z32 oil pump will bolt on satisfactorily. At the moment some sort of liquid metal filler fix is preferred, given that it will be under compression and the two mounting bolts in question can be tapped through the filler into the block itself. I'm thinking if the filler stands up to machining OK, it will have to be machined flush with the block face, then it will be fine. I had the same idea a while ago, but was thinking of welding in a new portion to the front of the block and then having it surfaced flush with the original oil pump mounting surface. I still think a chain driven,external dry sump system would be the most ideal fix though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted August 18, 2010 Author Share Posted August 18, 2010 Will be using a slightly modified VG30DETT sump pan and pickup, plus an Accusump, same as on the present engine which has had no oiling problems at all. The VG33 should be even better due to it having the lower capacity DE oil pump and carrying less oil up top in the heads, so better drain down although I'm still looking at that, the left head having the drain at the front. I guess my philosophy is to build to a standard which is generous for the intended use but no more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbov6.30 Posted August 22, 2010 Share Posted August 22, 2010 I've built this engine using a VG30de crank with the snout machined back to work with the VG33 oil pump. It's not big deal you just have to sleeve the snout of the crank to deal with the groove that's will be left after machining. You can still use the VG33 oil pump and a rear oil filter if a groove is machined to connect the inlet and outlet on the pump where the oil filter adapter bolts on. You only need to fab a plate over this modification for it to work. If your concerned about the volume of oil the engine is getting then shim the spring in the pump to increase oil pressure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoov100 Posted August 22, 2010 Share Posted August 22, 2010 (edited) I've built this engine using a VG30de crank with the snout machined back to work with the VG33 oil pump. It's not big deal you just have to sleeve the snout of the crank to deal with the groove that's will be left after machining. You can still use the VG33 oil pump and a rear oil filter if a groove is machined to connect the inlet and outlet on the pump where the oil filter adapter bolts on. You only need to fab a plate over this modification for it to work. If your concerned about the volume of oil the engine is getting then shim the spring in the pump to increase oil pressure. Pump flow and pump pressure are two different things,simply bumping up the pressure won't make up for the pumps ability to flow. Ontop of that, the whole reason we want to use a dett pump, is because it is leaps and bounds better then the 33's pump, as it has to supply oil to two turbo's, 4 cams, piston squirters and the VTC system as well as push the oil through a lengthy oil cooler hose setup. I barely trust the 33's oil pump to handle a stock motor in a stock car that is driven like a grandma, let alone a tt, t or even a modded N/A setup. Simply put there is no replacement for displacement, in this case the displacement is flow. I would still like to see a chain driven dry sump pump though. Edited August 22, 2010 by hoov100 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
letitsnow Posted August 22, 2010 Share Posted August 22, 2010 How did you decide that the stock 33 pump is so inadequate? Lots of failures or something? What about the vg30et pump? Unless I'm mistaken, which happens pretty often, isn't flow through an orifice(the engine in this case) directly related to the pressure drop across it? If so, the orifice(engine) will flow the same amount at the same pressure regardless of the pumps ability to flow more. Bumping the pressure up will therefor increase the flow, assuming that the pump can deliver that much oil. It's very similar to the fuel system, as long as the pump can supply enough to maintain pressure everything's fine. Increasing the fuel pressure makes the injectors seem bigger because they move more fuel. Throwing a magnafuel 500 on an otherwise stock engine won't make a bit of difference. Now if you ported the oil passages and ran real loose bearing clearances then you might be able to convince me you needed more flow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoov100 Posted August 22, 2010 Share Posted August 22, 2010 How did you decide that the stock 33 pump is so inadequate? Lots of failures or something? What about the vg30et pump? Unless I'm mistaken, which happens pretty often, isn't flow through an orifice(the engine in this case) directly related to the pressure drop across it? If so, the orifice(engine) will flow the same amount at the same pressure regardless of the pumps ability to flow more. Bumping the pressure up will therefor increase the flow, assuming that the pump can deliver that much oil. It's very similar to the fuel system, as long as the pump can supply enough to maintain pressure everything's fine. Increasing the fuel pressure makes the injectors seem bigger because they move more fuel. Throwing a magnafuel 500 on an otherwise stock engine won't make a bit of difference. Now if you ported the oil passages and ran real loose bearing clearances then you might be able to convince me you needed more flow. The 33's pump flows less then a vg30e's and are very dinky. The problem with just upping the pressure, is that vg's already have a problem with spinning rod bearings from high oil pressure. While yes you are going to be limited in flow by the diameter of the oil galley's, that's not necessarily a problem with the VG30 as the factory oil pumps are a bit small and flow just a little bit beyond what is needed for a stock setup. oil pump volume is the issue when you are trying to feed a turbo or two, an oil cooler and the motor. The few VG33 threads in this forum are absolutely filled with the info, links and pics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted August 23, 2010 Author Share Posted August 23, 2010 Old mate machinist has had a look at the block and thinks some good liquid metal will be fine to fill in the low part behind a VG30DE oil pump. Will get the two holes required drilled on his mill for accuracy, probably use a couple of studs there which can have sealer on the threads if need be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbov6.30 Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 (edited) Pump flow and pump pressure are two different things,simply bumping up the pressure won't make up for the pumps ability to flow. Pump pressure and area are inversely related. If you increase the area (size) of the pump pressure will decrease. If you increase the pressure but pump size stayed the same then the volume of oil pumped will increase. This true with turbo, supercharger and oil pumps, it's the reason you can go to a bigger turbo at less pressure and make the same power. If you increase the area of the pump it reduces the pressure and increases the volume of air but say you stayed with a smaller turbo. You would have to increase the pressure to get the same volume increase. Same principle applies to your reason for wanting to use the DE oil pump over the E oil pump. Edited August 25, 2010 by Turbov6.30 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted August 26, 2010 Author Share Posted August 26, 2010 The oil gallery sizes on the 33 and DE/TT blocks appear to be the same, except the main one from the oil pump to the oil filter base which looks to be a touch smaller on the 33, apparently to suit the smaller OE pump outlet. If that is so then my 33 block will be drilled out to match. As a general observation on oil flow, the single cam engine has a much simpler oil distribution system so overall it should offer less resistance to oil flow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SATAN Posted October 23, 2010 Share Posted October 23, 2010 (edited) Ok, I actually just figure all of this out last night before even finding this thread LOL. Here is what I am doing... Running TT crank in VG33E block. Running VG33 oil pump case only. When using the VG33E oil pump on the TT crank, the oil seal wants to ride right where the oil pump drive and the oil pump seal journal meet (it is radiused smaller a little bit, a void if you will). If you try to put the oil seal there, it will most likely leak VERY badly. I know because I put the TT crank into the block and then put on the VG33 oil pump, and it's not a good situation. I am going to weld in this void, and have the crank turned down as is mentioned in this thread, so the timing gear can line up properly. Basically what is happening is the journal that the oil seal rides on, just has to be "moved back" about 6mm or so. This will fix where the oil seal rides and where the timing gear needs to line up. I however understand the reasoning to want to run the TT oil pump. That is a man's pump! However... Screw that. I am just running a shell of a VG33E pump so I can utilize the oil seal. Then I am going to run an entire dry sump system (which is on the way now). 260DET has it right though, If you read everything he has posted, it makes 100% sense if you understand the differences between both setups. But MAN... spacing out cam gears, tensioners, pulley's, blah blah blah... Just run a dry sump at that point... On a side note, after I do this, then I will LEGITIMATELY by a hybrid Z member LOL. Cause currently, I don't really have anything that is a hybrid on my car other than a z32/z33 brake system and z32 cam sensor and ECU. Edited October 23, 2010 by SATAN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoov100 Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 Ok, I actually just figure all of this out last night before even finding this thread LOL. Here is what I am doing... Running TT crank in VG33E block. Running VG33 oil pump case only. When using the VG33E oil pump on the TT crank, the oil seal wants to ride right where the oil pump drive and the oil pump seal journal meet (it is radiused smaller a little bit, a void if you will). If you try to put the oil seal there, it will most likely leak VERY badly. I know because I put the TT crank into the block and then put on the VG33 oil pump, and it's not a good situation. I am going to weld in this void, and have the crank turned down as is mentioned in this thread, so the timing gear can line up properly. Basically what is happening is the journal that the oil seal rides on, just has to be "moved back" about 6mm or so. This will fix where the oil seal rides and where the timing gear needs to line up. I however understand the reasoning to want to run the TT oil pump. That is a man's pump! However... Screw that. I am just running a shell of a VG33E pump so I can utilize the oil seal. Then I am going to run an entire dry sump system (which is on the way now). 260DET has it right though, If you read everything he has posted, it makes 100% sense if you understand the differences between both setups. But MAN... spacing out cam gears, tensioners, pulley's, blah blah blah... Just run a dry sump at that point... On a side note, after I do this, then I will LEGITIMATELY by a hybrid Z member LOL. Cause currently, I don't really have anything that is a hybrid on my car other than a z32/z33 brake system and z32 cam sensor and ECU. What the general idea was, is to run the TT crank and oil pump in the 33's block. Spacing the cam gears/tensioner is the easy part to all this. If funds become available to me, I'm going to be doing this route. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SATAN Posted October 26, 2010 Share Posted October 26, 2010 What the general idea was, is to run the TT crank and oil pump in the 33's block. Spacing the cam gears/tensioner is the easy part to all this. If funds become available to me, I'm going to be doing this route. I don't know man... How are you going to space out the cam gears? The only way I see this being an option is if you have a different hub machined for a set of adjustable cam gears. You will need a longer stud if you space out the tensioner. You are going to have to fill in the block where sealing edge of the pump does not line up, up top. Then all of your accessories are going to have to be re aligned. I am not saying that it can't be done. I just think saying it is going to be easy is a bit of a stretch. While I agree that the TT pump is by far a better pump... That is a lot of work to still be running an OEM pump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoov100 Posted October 26, 2010 Share Posted October 26, 2010 I don't know man... How are you going to space out the cam gears? The only way I see this being an option is if you have a different hub machined for a set of adjustable cam gears. You will need a longer stud if you space out the tensioner. You are going to have to fill in the block where sealing edge of the pump does not line up, up top. Then all of your accessories are going to have to be re aligned. I am not saying that it can't be done. I just think saying it is going to be easy is a bit of a stretch. While I agree that the TT pump is by far a better pump... That is a lot of work to still be running an OEM pump. There was two options on the table, one was to machine a spacer, And one to cut out and re-weld the hub. The stud is not really that big of an issue as a longer grade 8 stud should be pretty easy to get if not make. as for the pump, we where discussing filling in where the edge of the pump was with something and drilling and tapping new holes. As for the accessories, you could just machine the crank pulley down, or put spacers behind the mounting bolts on the accessories. The question of easy is relative, as finding the info and gathering everything we have posted is the hardest part for me, everything else is a matter of money. Of course though someone contemplating doing this is going to have an idea that this is no real walk in the park and that you are going to have to do some serious research. (which we have have posted) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SATAN Posted October 26, 2010 Share Posted October 26, 2010 (edited) The question of easy is relative, as finding the info and gathering everything we have posted is the hardest part for me, everything else is a matter of money. That's what I'm saying though. All of that work/money in machining to utilize a better pump. If you are going through this much trouble just to run an OEM wet sump pump... why not go drysump at that point? I just picked up an ENTIRE 4 stage drysump system for $1100. The only thing I have to do is modify an oil pan and mount the components. While the twin turbo oil pump seems to be a good pump, it still has nothing on well designed dry sump setup. Then again, I suppose that is not what this thread is about... It is just about what it takes to put a TT crank into a 33 block. On a side note, I noticed that the TT block actually HAS the extra holes for both style pumps. I was explaining to my friend (who had a TT block on and engine stand) what it would take to get my TT crank to work, when I noticed the extra set of holes for both style oil pumps. What vehicle would utilize the other pump but a TT block I wonder? Edited October 26, 2010 by SATAN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoov100 Posted October 26, 2010 Share Posted October 26, 2010 That's what I'm saying though. All of that work/money in machining to utilize a better pump. If you are going through this much trouble just to run an OEM wet sump pump... why not go drysump at that point? I just picked up an ENTIRE 4 stage drysump system for $1100. The only thing I have to do is modify an oil pan and mount the components. While the twin turbo oil pump seems to be a good pump, it still has nothing on well designed dry sump setup. Then again, I suppose that is not what this thread is about... It is just about what it takes to put a TT crank into a 33 block. On a side note, I noticed that the TT block actually HAS the extra holes for both style pumps. I was explaining to my friend (who had a TT block on and engine stand) what it would take to get my TT crank to work, when I noticed the extra set of holes for both style oil pumps. What vehicle would utilize the other pump but a TT block I wonder? Because dry sump systems are expensive and need alot of maintenance, plus they are driven externally by a belt, plus you need drill and tap new holes for the oil lines, block off the oil filter, build a new pan, plumb a dry sump tank..etc dry sump components are by no stretch of imagination cheap. all of the scavenger filters, inline filters and main filters will set you back a few hundred easy. Add an extra couple hundred for custom AN lines and you are at $500 for just filters and lines, not to mention you have to machine the crank pulley to accept a new pulley, then figure out how to drive the water pump, PS pump and alternator. I have dealt with dry sump systems before and they are no where near economical for street use. Typical service life for a dry sump pump is to replace the drive belt every 500 miles (6-8 races) and to rebuild the pump about every 1500 miles (one season or about 12-16 races). The TT and N/A block are the same, what extra set of holes are you talking about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted October 26, 2010 Author Share Posted October 26, 2010 The main reason why I started this thread is because when I searched the WWW a few years ago for days, there was a whole lot of talk on the topic but nothing definitive. So its here to inform others and to invite constructive comment. I'm coming from having a good forged Z32 crank and wanting to use that in a 33 block together with the Z32 oil pump in a hybrid VG33ET engine for my road course Z. I already have a Z32 gearbox and flywheel with clutch and lightweight* custom made Z32 accessory mounts which should bolt straight up, spacing the cam gears out is no problem because they will be converted to be adjustable at the same time. Its going to be a relatively easy process for me because of my situation, its up to others to decide which way they want to go, I'm just trying to provide info to assist the decision making process. * some of the stock accessory mounts are so damm heavy, no good for a race car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SATAN Posted October 27, 2010 Share Posted October 27, 2010 The TT and N/A block are the same, what extra set of holes are you talking about? I have not seen the NA Z32 block, only the TT block. The holes I am talking about are... If you take the TT oil pump and fit it to a 33 block, then the two top mounting holes do not line up. They are further out on the block by about 1/4" or so than where the VG33 pump lines up. These are the holes that would have to be tapped into the block that was discussed in this thread. When I was at the shop a couple days ago explaining what I was doing to my friend, I was looking at the TT block and saw that there were 4 holes in that spot, instead of just the two that are needed for the pump. It looked as though you could take the VG33 pump and fit it to the TT block. Porsche 911's have always come with dry sumps from the factory. You don't have to change their belts every 500 miles and you don't service their pumps every 1500 miles especially when you are going 3k between oil changes. Also, why would you go through all the trouble of machining down the crank pulley only to have to figure out what to do for accessory belts again later? When instead, all you have to do is mount a pulley on the front of the harmonic balancer and then line the pump up with that. Basically, you are making a dry sump sound WAY MORE difficult that it is in reality. Here is a VH45 in a z31 that stinky did. He is utilizing a drysump system. It's not that bad man... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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