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Fender Vents, General aero Questions


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#41 heavy85

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 06:52 AM

Not sure where else to put this and it's under fender aero related so lets see if this thread works. I just lowered the splitter in an attempt to make more downforce. Now am working on the vertical fences that cover the front tire. Here is what I have been using for several years and as you can see it's more of a blended flare shape rather than gurney strip type of device.

image_zpsd2d47cac.jpg

I'm thinking of moving to more of a true vertical 'trip strip' or gurney flap type of design thinking this might make more downforce by adding a stagnation point just above the splitter. The splitter lip is 4" wide all around which puts it roughly 1.25" wider per side than the tires (15x10). For drag reasons this seems excessive but am hesitant to give up the spitter width. Here is what I have so far:

image_zpsa98989f1.jpg

Goal is to maximize downforce for hillclimb. Trying to decide how to finish off the new fences. Narrow them by maybe 3/4" including the side of the splitter? Leave the bottom and taper it so that it blends into the flare at the top? Leave it late model style like the picture? By the way, the top where it meets the flare is flat to the world although the pic looks angled. Thought or suggestions would be appreciated to help think through this.

Edited by heavy85, 29 December 2013 - 10:53 AM.


#42 JMortensen

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 09:42 AM

RaceCar Engineering did a test on a couple different setups on a Honda Civic in 2006. Best result was with no slope or ramp at the bottom. McBeath seemed to want a ramp to work and sounded surprised that the lip worked better than the ramp. Would help on yours to have the inner fenderwell removed or have holes in it to let the pressure out of the engine bay.

 

As to how to finish them off, I'd be inclined to make them fit to the top of the flares, otherwise you'll generate a vortex at the tip that hangs out. That vortex might be helpful, or it might hurt airflow further back... ???

 

 

Originally Posted by 7/2006 RCE

The final configuration showed further that the splitter ramps had a perhaps unexpected detrimental effect on efficiency. Adding small ramps again in front of the full height vertical fences not only reduced downforce at front and rear but also increased drag. Oddly then, what looked like a device that might have made the vertical fences more efficient in fact had the opposite effect.


Edited by JMortensen, 29 December 2013 - 09:45 AM.

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#43 heavy85

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 10:59 AM

Thanks John thats good data point. Any idea how wide they were relative to the front tires? Have also though a lot about cutting holes in the tub to vent the engine bay but not sure there either. Devil is in the details making it tough to make it most effective.

Edited by heavy85, 29 December 2013 - 11:25 AM.


#44 JMortensen

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 11:31 AM

I know they completely covered the front of the tire, I think they were a bit wider but I couldn't say how much off the top of my head. It's really the same theory as the gurney in front of a vent. There has to be a point where you're adding more drag than necessary, but you'd probably need to test it to find out what worked best.


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#45 tube80z

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 10:56 AM

In the January RCE there's some additional data from the Pikes Peak electric Toyota that is helpful.  This shows the rear s-flap better but there's also a front one just as large.  For your base setup I would cover both the front and rear tires so you don't see any tread from the front.  Then for the flap you can have it extend at least one inch.  For Max downforce more may be better and sharks teeth may allow that to work with less drag.  

 

For your splitter you haven't mentioned what is allowed in the rules.  For more downforce you may be able to extend further out.  A lot of the Pikes Peak cars in the open class use 10 to 12 inch extensions.  You can also add end plates to the splitter to help.   But getting back to max front downforce I think you'd want to first make sure the radiator is ducted and then seal the wheel wells.  On top of the fender add very aggressive louvers and cut out the back of the fender.  

 

Search for time attack aero, splitter, fender vents, etc. and you'll get some decent examples.  At this stage then you have enough low pressure to help drive splitter ramps (diffusers).  And if rules allow you can make the splitter a large wing section and run footer plates on the end.  From looking at a number of the time attack cars that are doing heavy CFD footer plates are starting to show up on them.  

 

Hope that helps,

Cary


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#46 heavy85

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 04:45 PM

Cary - pretty much open aero rules. I already have well sealed up front end with ducted radiator. Large vents in hood and rear of front fenders open. I havent done anything to the rear yet. I just lowered the splitter and added three diffusers into it.

What are sharks teeth?

What do you mean by seal the wheel wells?

#47 tube80z

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Posted 01 January 2014 - 09:42 AM

It looks like you have the ducting covered.  Forget the comments on the sharks teeth.  Serrated gurneys were darlings in the wind tunnel but never panned out, although everyone had them on there cars at one point.  In the tunnel they reduced drag by half at the same downforce level.

 

For the splitter take a look at Loeb's Pug.  Rather than a curved splitter blade you can run if straight across the front to gain more area for the pressure to work on.  Since you don't have the SCCA 6 inch rule you can make it as long as you want.  I'd guess 10 to 12 inches is about the max that would work.  On the sides you can add fences, also like the pug.  And then on the fenders you have add s-flaps.  For the wheel wells my comments were to make sure there's no opening into the engine compartment above the splitter.  On the top of the fender you can add louvers and all this should make the diffuser ramps much more effective.  The ones in your image can get a lot larger.  Take a look at some of the P2 DSR front ramps for ideas.  Max angle is around 14 degrees.

 

A more difficult to build splitter would be a large wing section for the front.  On the ends use a foot plate so that it won't completely stall when it hits the ground.  The Reynard inverter had a small version of this.  A few older legrand DSRs have used this and needed to double front spring rate to keep it from dragging.  The downside is a lot more work than a flat panel with some ramps.  Perhaps an upgrade for the future.

 

Hope this helps,

Cary


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#48 RebekahsZ

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 09:53 AM

Here's a shout out to heavy85:  Cameron, can you check your PMs?  I sent you a question on your seats.  Call me at 256-366-4685 or email me at pkeiththompson@yahoo.com if your PM system isn't working.  I'm having trouble with the Intermediate RR seats and am hoping you can render some advice.  Thanks.  I figured I could reach you via this thread since I think you've been lurking on this topic.


1972 240z, purchased in 1991 for $900. Bone stock LS2/T56/DBW from 2006 GTO, swap completed in 2011. 400rwhp/435 rwtq. 2400# minus driver. JCI swap, Mantic ER2 clutch kit, JTR headers, single exhaust, Borla muffler, MGW shifter, M2 Differentials shortened Z31 CV axles, Z31 CLSD R200, Chequered Flag Racing billet stubs and companion flanges. MSD 2-step, Hurst roll control, both operated from switches on clutch pedal. 9" Hoosier drag slicks on Weld Draglites, 245/45/16 Hoosier A6/R6 on 16X8+10 Rota RBR. 225/250 sectioned coilovers, Koni 8610-1437RACE shocks, DP and EMI camber plates, MM shortened rear control arms, TTT front control arms, poly and aluminum bushings. Top speeds: Ohio Mile 174mph, C/GMS class record holder, best 1/8 mile 6.96 at 100mph, best 1/4-mile 11.0 at 126mph, best 60' 1.43, best 1/2-mile 148mph at GA 1/2-mile. Home Track-Jake's Dragway, Moulton, AL. SCCA autocross club - TVR, Huntsville, AL. Lets race!


#49 heavy85

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 07:36 AM

Added flaps in front of rear tire and left the front as pictured above. Couldnt find reasonably priced super aggressive vents for the top of the fenders so am just going with what I could find - standard louvers. From looking at professional racecar pics looks like starting about centerline of the tire and going back seems to be the norm. Before I start cutting the fender anyone have other tech on the subject?

image_zps969c4769.jpg

#50 Sideways

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 07:19 PM

Get your hands on a magnehelic gauge and measure what 2 points actually have the highest pressure difference :)?

110360_12lo.jpg

You can snag these things for silly cheap on ebay.  Takes almost all the guess work out of stuff like this



#51 RebekahsZ

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Posted 26 January 2014 - 04:43 AM

heavy85-I like everything you do, but simply a cosmetic suggestion: what would you think about installing the vents from the underside to reduce loss of your pretty paint job?  Car is starting to look like something off a Mad Max movie.  Only a humble suggestion; I know you are primarily thinking of function...

 

Finally, what type of store did you visit to get the big piece of aluminum for your splitter, and how much did it cost?


1972 240z, purchased in 1991 for $900. Bone stock LS2/T56/DBW from 2006 GTO, swap completed in 2011. 400rwhp/435 rwtq. 2400# minus driver. JCI swap, Mantic ER2 clutch kit, JTR headers, single exhaust, Borla muffler, MGW shifter, M2 Differentials shortened Z31 CV axles, Z31 CLSD R200, Chequered Flag Racing billet stubs and companion flanges. MSD 2-step, Hurst roll control, both operated from switches on clutch pedal. 9" Hoosier drag slicks on Weld Draglites, 245/45/16 Hoosier A6/R6 on 16X8+10 Rota RBR. 225/250 sectioned coilovers, Koni 8610-1437RACE shocks, DP and EMI camber plates, MM shortened rear control arms, TTT front control arms, poly and aluminum bushings. Top speeds: Ohio Mile 174mph, C/GMS class record holder, best 1/8 mile 6.96 at 100mph, best 1/4-mile 11.0 at 126mph, best 60' 1.43, best 1/2-mile 148mph at GA 1/2-mile. Home Track-Jake's Dragway, Moulton, AL. SCCA autocross club - TVR, Huntsville, AL. Lets race!


#52 heavy85

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 08:38 PM

Car is starting to look like something off a Mad Max

Finally, what type of store did you visit to get the big piece of aluminum for your splitter, and how much did it cost?


Thank you .... and I use Aluminum / polyethylene sandwhich material for the splitter. Ref Didond and others but dont remember the brand I used. Bought two 2x3 sheets off e-bay because the bigger sheet shipping is not reasonable. I think the 2x3 sheets were may $30 each shipped? Yes this means its two pieces with a seam in the middle but that doesnt hurt anything.

#53 heavy85

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 08:39 PM

Get your hands on a magnehelic gauge and measure what 2 points actually have the highest pressure difference :)?

110360_12lo.jpg

You can snag these things for silly cheap on ebay. Takes almost all the guess work out of stuff like this


Have one .... car is in pieces and theres snow on the ground ....

#54 Sideways

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 05:03 AM

Have one .... car is in pieces and theres snow on the ground ....

Minor details.



#55 ZT-R

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Posted 29 July 2015 - 07:24 PM

http://forums.hybrid...tions/?p=925351
Did this produce good results?


<p>72 240z R.I.P.S. Forged RB30/26DET, BW 9174EFR, Series 2 AEM EMS , Endyn Pro Head, R.I.P.S. Intake Manifold & 90mm TB, R230 Rear End, T3 Suspension, ect...My Build Thread





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