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Ms3x install


madkaw

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So I’ll share my drama from my last couple of months . Engine just wasn’t running right and I swore I had a miss, but engine acted like it had a hunting idle.

I knew my MAP sensor was questionable since I got it from the JY. I decided to buy a genuine new GM from Rock auto. Received it and checked it before install and it was bad out of the box. Sent it back and got another, this one has been working correctly. My Map Daddy that is on my board is bad also. I think it ruined from gunk running down the vacuum line. Current MAP sensor is installed above the intake!

Engine still ran like poop, and I knew it had a misfire for some reason. Bought one of those HEI spark testers to test the coils . Found a coil that wouldn’t jump the spark - BINGO- I thought. Bought some used ones to replace my used ones and it still wasn’t right. Examined my GM plug wires with less than 10k miles and they didn’t look that great . Had a couple of extra wires and swapped some out. Ran slightly better but didn’t trust them. 

Because if the bad weather , most of my troubleshooting was idling in the garage. When I finally got out on the road the car sputtered up any hill at low rpm. WOT she still got it , but any low rpm loading caused major issues.

All this time I was checking everything else on the engine; timing , tune , software updates , wiring , I just had re- wired the whole fuse box. 

Did a lot of reading and read how easy these logic coils will fire off. Little over 2 volts across the logic side and boom. 

I broke down and ordered MSD wires and new plugs. FIXED!

Have to keep all the spark in the boots or these d585 will fire off. Pretty scary if you are running a turbo ( Gollum -are you reading ?) 

 

Hopefully the drama is over .Time to get my cam sensor working .

 

Side note: Timing light is NOT an effective tool to troubleshoot spark with wasted spark and d-585 coils. The flash is erratic . I saw wasted spark flashes on 3 of the cylinders and half that speed on the other cylinders 

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Additional info to Steve's plight. A lot of the Auto-Discharge issues that you see on different pots are NOT due to excessive dwell. Especially on OEM GM, AC Delco and Delphi coils. Rather it is due to electrical noise or EMI. " D585" coils are particularly sensitive to EMI.  Things like leaking plug wires and improper grounding can Trigger the Auto-Discharge feature.

 

Ye you read that right.  " Feature "... GM has an " Anti-Stall " algorithm built into the Logic software that will Auto Discharge the the coils if RPM falls too low . It adds timing very quickly to prevent stalling. However, it can also be triggered by electrical noise . This is what I suspect was happening with Steve's engine and the leaky GM wires. Why they failed so quickly is a mystery, but they had text book failure signs. White burn through marks and splits in insulation. I feel that even though the GM leads were stock, the HT leads were bent too sharply on  an L-6 install and this stressed the insulation, causing it to fail. On GM LS motors the lead wires have a very gentle curve. Something to think about.

 

BTW,  giving credit where credit is due. I found out about the GM " Anti Stall " feature from a very advanced discussion on Ignition systems at EFI university. Paul from Pantera EFI was explaining the D585 auto-discharge problem and posted info on the GM logic coil issues and EMI. Andy Wyatt has also commented on D585 coils sensitivity to EMI. If memory serves me correct, the Pantera EFI coils do not include the Anti Stall algorithm and this makes them much less sensitive to Auto Discharge. 

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Just thinking out loud here. You may ask... " But why would Steve's ignitionbe OK at WOT but not at  at low RPM's? "  Well, you have to look at Steve's tune and engine combo to understand why.

 

Steve's engine is NA. That makes a big difference. At WOT it is actually easier to fire the plugs than at low loads. WOT has richer mixtures that are easier to fire off than lean mixtures. Steve is also able to run very Lean low speed and Cruise AFR's due to the big spark energy from the GM coils. I believe his last table had a low RPM and Cruise range AFR at 15.0 to one. That's perfectly acceptable with big spark energy. And I believe that Steve is running NGK BPR6ES-11 plugs with a 1.1mm or .041" gap. 

 

The combination of Lean mixture ( raises Voltage required to initiate spark ) and wider plug gaps raised the spark plug firing point to more than the damaged insulation in the GM leads could handle.  This created a lot of EMI and Triggered the Anti Stall/Auto discharge feature on the GM coils. Thus the low speed misfire.  I'm betting it would also be worse on rainy days if Steve took it out in the rain

 

 If it was a Turbo car,  the leaking plug leads would have been easier to identify ( You had to look at them very closely to see the damage ). Boost raises ignition energy well above what you need with a NA engine at WOT.

 

Magnacore has some excellent articles on  HT Lead damage and effects. It doesn't take much to cause a problem. 

 

 

 

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6” maybe. I think total length of the wire is 10” . I think they are sized for the corvette. They are actually shorter then the ones I took off which were for the truck LS motor. Not sure about all the differences in the sizes. 

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On 1/3/2019 at 12:30 AM, Gollum said:

Yeah, that's me and all my youtube glory. Hope it helps out. Keep us updated on the progress!

 

So I found a true Nissan TPS at the JY and it is so much more accurate ! 

Don’t even know what model it came off of, but it works. Didn’t need to preload it or anything 

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  • 2 months later...
  • 3 months later...
  • 7 months later...

Well a lot has transpired since I last posted . I had issues with the 2.8 and moved on to my 3.2 build . Thankfully with just a fuel requirement adjustment based on just a percentage increase of CC of the motor the engine fired off in the first couple of revolutions . I am 200 miles into the fresh motor and couldn’t be much happier . I finally implemented full sequential using my Jeep sensor . 
Only issue is a slightly richer burn on #6 cylinder. After checking everything I have to think it’s a air flow issue with my N42 intake . I am going to make a trim adjustment to the injector , though I have no clue what I’m doing . MS is not very clear on how to . It’s not enough to sweat over and going from batch fire to sequential seemed to help the issue . I have been communicating with DIY and they aren’t convinced that it’s an airflow issue . 
Need to get to the dyno to see where I’m at on WHP - but it’s over 200 for sure . 

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I've noticed that 5 and 6 are richer and 1 is leaner on the two factory stock L28"s I've run.  Be careful with trimming your injector, the richness might only be at idle.  6 is known for being the detonation cylinder, from what I've read.  Might go lean at higher air flows.

 

You need 6 O2 sensors to really see what's happening.

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  • 2 months later...
On 5/5/2020 at 2:36 PM, NewZed said:

I've noticed that 5 and 6 are richer and 1 is leaner on the two factory stock L28"s I've run.  Be careful with trimming your injector, the richness might only be at idle.  6 is known for being the detonation cylinder, from what I've read.  Might go lean at higher air flows.

 

You need 6 O2 sensors to really see what's happening.

I only trimmed in the lower KPA areas , so we will see how it goes

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4 hours ago, madkaw said:

I only trimmed in the lower KPA areas , so we will see how it goes

 

Any chance you'd share your MSQ file with me for comparison? I appreciate your help last time I had questions. Mine's been running alright, but I've been trying to tweak small things like accel enrichment that I can't seem to get right. 

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9 hours ago, Zetsaz said:

 

Any chance you'd share your MSQ file with me for comparison? I appreciate your help last time I had questions. Mine's been running alright, but I've been trying to tweak small things like accel enrichment that I can't seem to get right. 

I’m changing my laptop that I use in my car , so it might be a minute . 
So is it bogging or what is the engine doing during acceleration . My setting are more seat of the pants then anything . I’ve been more worried about VE tables .

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2 hours ago, madkaw said:

I’m changing my laptop that I use in my car , so it might be a minute . 
So is it bogging or what is the engine doing during acceleration . My setting are more seat of the pants then anything . I’ve been more worried about VE tables .

 

No rush, would just be nice to see a comparison with someone who's actually running NA with a similar setup.

It's actually driving fairly smooth! I'm just spoiled and care a lot about driving characteristics and response haha. 

Seems like when I stab the throttle, at pretty much any amount, it'll go lean first then too rich. Some of the adjustments I've tried to make center it a bit more, but more often have just resulted in overly rich before it settles. 

I'm with you on VEs too. I've had a tough time trying to balance deceleration vs shifting. Seems like when I get it firgured out to not have misfiring from very lean mixtures on deceleration in gear, I'll get random pops or overly rich areas when I'm shifting, especially at WOT. Have tried manually manipulating it, because the auto tune feature can never seem to get it right even in "very hard" cell change resistance. 

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On 5/5/2020 at 2:36 PM, NewZed said:

I've noticed that 5 and 6 are richer and 1 is leaner on the two factory stock L28"s I've run.  Be careful with trimming your injector, the richness might only be at idle.  6 is known for being the detonation cylinder, from what I've read.  Might go lean at higher air flows.

 

You need 6 O2 sensors to really see what's happening.

I only trimmed in the lower KPA areas , so we will see how it goes

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Using a new Mac Pro -so I am challenged , but I think this is my latest tune 

9 hours ago, Zetsaz said:

 

No rush, would just be nice to see a comparison with someone who's actually running NA with a similar setup.

It's actually driving fairly smooth! I'm just spoiled and care a lot about driving characteristics and response haha. 

Seems like when I stab the throttle, at pretty much any amount, it'll go lean first then too rich. Some of the adjustments I've tried to make center it a bit more, but more often have just resulted in overly rich before it settles. 

I'm with you on VEs too. I've had a tough time trying to balance deceleration vs shifting. Seems like when I get it firgured out to not have misfiring from very lean mixtures on deceleration in gear, I'll get random pops or overly rich areas when I'm shifting, especially at WOT. Have tried manually manipulating it, because the auto tune feature can never seem to get it right even in "very hard" cell change resistance. 

 

#6 trim tune.msq

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