LanceVance Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 (edited) I've got an idea that is most likely ill advised, but I figured I would run it by those more knowledgeable than I before dismissing it completely! Anyway, let me first list what I've got (this is for a 75' S30 2+2 with an L28ET): I've got a manual 240SX 5-speed gearbox that is out and ready to be mated to my 4-speed bell housing. I've got a P90 head (which was cast with an opening for a mechanical fuel pump, despite not being intended for use with one), a camshaft with an eccentric end piece and a spare mechanical fuel pump. I've got a replacement radiator that comes from the factory with a transmission cooler (as was equipped with automatic models). See where I'm going with this? Would it be possible to pump the transmission fluid through the cooler using the mechanical fuel pump? As far as I can tell there shouldn't be any problems with this configuration, but being so deceptively simple leads me to believe I'm overlooking something obvious. Advantages would be: A.) Cooler transmission fluid. B.) The ability to constantly filter the fluid instead of relying on one small magnet catching only ferrous contaminants. C.) The simplicity of using readily available and professionally manufactured components from within the Nissan family. D.) Cost. I've got everything aside from the few fittings and lines required to connect it all. Disadvantages: A.) Not very efficient. B.) Pump not intended for the heat and viscosity associated with transmission fluid. Comments? Ideas? Suggestions? Edited June 5, 2014 by LanceVance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Six_Shooter Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 I can't comment on how well this may or may not work, but I have to say that's an interesting idea. Not something I would have thought of. I have thought about going the conventional way using an electric pump and stand alone heat exchanger. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 Get yourself the pump and switches out of a GT-R (heck, and the air cooled cooler while you're at it!) and go for it. What you describe came on Z31's in Europe, and if you cruise West Texas at the "legal I10 Limit" during the summer you are well into the zone where this would be advisable. Nissan did it for a reason, sustained high speed driving even in chilly Europe will heat things up where lubrication is marginal with non-synthetics. I refuse to run non-synthetics when my R180 got hot enough after running from Riverside to ElPaso in a day that the plastic breather melted off and dropped into the crossmember behind it, and the mineral oil burned up so black that you couldn't smell the hypoind any longer... Transmission? Hell dude, I'd put one on the differential as well! All the parts exist in the Nissan Catalogs to do this--it's a factory-standard setup! R200's in Europe on S130 Turbos in fact, had a differential cooler straight from Nissan. The Z31 got both a tranny and differential cooler. Now, in the radiator? That's a long run...the stock coolers are under the car and seem to cycle the pump, so the cooling you need may not rise to exchanger in the rad level... It's really more set up for low-vis ATF, don't know how it will do with 90 or 140wt! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LanceVance Posted June 7, 2014 Author Share Posted June 7, 2014 (edited) Get yourself the pump and switches out of a GT-R (heck, and the air cooled cooler while you're at it!) and go for it. Are you referring to the R35 or older generations? Is there any advantage using something out of the skyline model line (hard to source in the U.S.) when there are various 4x4 models that must have come with transmission coolers? What you describe came on Z31's in Europe, and if you cruise West Texas at the "legal I10 Limit" during the summer you are well into the zone where this would be advisable. I wasn’t aware of this. I’m anticipating a fair amount of research on this topic in my not-so-distant future… In regards to the I-10 limit, lets just say the stretch in between Las Cruces and the NM/AZ state line have been used as a top-speed proving grounds on more than one occasion. …Mind the jackrabbits, coyotes, and big cats… that is all I will say on the topic. I refuse to run non-synthetics when my R180 got hot enough after running from Riverside to ElPaso in a day that the plastic breather melted off and dropped into the crossmember behind it, and the mineral oil burned up so black that you couldn't smell the hypoind any longer... Transmission? Hell dude, I'd put one on the differential as well! The diff cooler is definitely in the works as well, just debating on how to go about mounting and providing airflow. Synthetics are a must here in the desert! I’ve been babying the STi here the last few days (110° on the dash for external temp) due to the high heat, and my garage still smells like burning plastic the next morning… All the parts exist in the Nissan Catalogs to do this--it's a factory-standard setup! Any model specific recommendations in regards to the pump? Most everything I’ve looked at is gear driven and specific to the model’s motor or auto transmission. Edited June 7, 2014 by LanceVance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 (edited) The coolers started in the R32's and as stated the Euro Turbo S130's and all Z31's have them... Nice systems, electrically driven. Far as I could see it's the same pump on the differential and on the tranny (two pumps, two heat exchangers.) I'm not aware of Nissan 4x4 fitments. I speak specifically to Nissan components used in their performance models specifically designed to cool the gear oil in the transmission and differential. No crossed applications, no guessing. When you get a possibility of pushing 200HP continuously through an R200 and higher speeds were common, it seemed like Nissan put a cooler and switch/relay on it. The pump did not run continuously, it was triggered by a sensor in the cover to turn it on and off. The cover had a filter screen of fine brass mesh, stand tube, and vent-- picked up from the cover, returned on the nose of differential to come through the inboard bearing (there is a slat on the housing where it was drilled...) I don't think the USA got them due to our relatively Third-World driving speeds near the population centers, and cost reasons being Americans won't pay for anything and will sue if you put it on and they can blame you for a failure afterwards. If it's not there, it can't fail, and if it can't fail then no contributing negligence in design... The same setup was used on the transmissions. Edited June 8, 2014 by Tony D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 If you buy the pumps new, don't fly back through New Jersey. Thieving bastards stole my four pumps, NIB, but left the greasy differential covers and fittings in ziplock bags. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 So you're looking at running a transmission cooler on a standard transmission? Never heard of that being done although I'm sure it has been done on very high performance vehicles - as well as differential coolers TonyD. My question is why bother? Unless you're planning on going to the Salt Flats or some other extremely high speed event you'll just be adding additional complexity and weight to your vehicle for no measurable benefit. Heck - I added an engine oil cooler to my Z back in the 90's and saw no benefit at all - and that was in Texas. Ended up giving it to a guy after I pulled the L28 and installed the LS1. Hardest I ever ran that combination was at Texas Motor Speedway in four 30 minute sessions and the only thing that showed any heat stress was my brakes. Maybe I should have had coolers on them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Six_Shooter Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 Why?Because some of us plan to abuse our cars in ways that would break down conventional lubricants before any sessions are over. The benefits are not usually seen as an instantaneous result, but is a way to prevent the lubrication break down and delay any effects of such for a longer period. Pulling heat away from components will help them survive longer than letting the heat soak into them. Done right the cooling systems could actually be run after the car is shut down to continue to cool the components, or as some people use them as, pre-heaters, to get the components up to temp before abusing them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewZed Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 You might consider cooling (and heating) the transmission oil from the outside. Use the case, it's aluminum and will transfer heat well. The same concept as the cooling fins on a differential. But you could add another interface or two to get the heat transferred to the coolant that passes through the engine's radiator. A heat transfer block with flowing engine coolant would heat the transmission and its fluid faster but maintain temperature at a lower level. Might be as easy and effective as trying to pump high viscosity fluid out and back in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LanceVance Posted June 14, 2014 Author Share Posted June 14, 2014 My question is why bother? Unless you're planning on going to the Salt Flats or some other extremely high speed event you'll just be adding additional complexity and weight to your vehicle for no measurable benefit… …four 30 minute sessions and the only thing that showed any heat stress was my brakes. Maybe I should have had coolers on them?... Six Shooter gives a few valid reasons… …some of us plan to abuse our cars in ways that would break down conventional lubricants before any sessions are over... …a way to prevent the lubrication break down and delay any effects of such for a longer period… …Pulling heat away from components will help them survive longer than letting the heat soak into them… In my case, multiple days of 110° on the daily’s dash display are enough to get me thinking about additional cooling measures for just about every component that can suffer from heat induced failure or malfunction. I drive my vehicles like a get-away driver, so anything I can do to extend the life of components is worth consideration. In regards to the Salt Flats, I do plan on someday taking both the Z and the STi (Once the motor is built) to the flats. The only issue I foresee is talking the wife into driving a tow vehicle that far. And brake ducts are in the works as well! You might consider cooling (and heating) the transmission oil from the outside. Use the case, it's aluminum and will transfer heat well. The same concept as the cooling fins on a differential. But you could add another interface or two to get the heat transferred to the coolant that passes through the engine's radiator… Something to consider; only problem is I’m planning an extensive under-tray so airflow will most likely be insufficient to make all that work worthwhile. As I said in the first post, I’ve got most of the components to put my proposed system together. Here are the components so far: Carter Mechanical Fuel Pump (PN: M60107) – Need to determine fitting size to convert to -AN Perma-Cool Remote Oil Thermostat (PN: 1060) Perma-Cool Remote Filter Mount (PN: 1791) WIX Transmission Oil Filter (PN: 51622) Longacre Sending Unit (PN: 43252) – to be hooked up to ‘dummy light’ on dashboard Spectra Premium Radiator (PN: B634) I found this diagram (Along with most of the components listed above) on a Bronco website (Click HERE if you’re interested in seeing it yourself) of all places. Guy designed a layout that did everything I wanted using as few fittings/components as possible. I may eventually tweak things to better suit my application, but for now this is what I’m looking at: And for those who, like me, were unfamiliar with how the thermostatic valves actually flow I’ve included this nifty animation that I found: Only thing that will be different would be the mechanical pump obviously (placement pending… suggestions?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 A mechanical fuel pump won't cut it. Viscosity and temperature will fail it if it even pumps at all. Get a proper oil pump, they sell them at Pegasus if you don't want the Nissan Parts. 30 minute track sessions are not stressing anything. If they are, your setup is severely deficient. As detailed elsewhere, running for a tank of gas at 85mph+, stopping for 20 minutes to gas up, and repeating 6-7 more times in a day is where something like this gets considered. (They were STOCK FITMENTS on Nissan's producing 200Hp or more in Europe where road horsepower requirements would make sure the power of the engine was actually used.) those drives are more akin to endurance racing, an animal very different than a 30 minute track sprint. I have put 18,000 miles on a Z in three weeks time, and using far less hours than you would think. That got the differential hot enough to melt the plastic breather right off...how much further behind was the tranny? That kind of heat is not good for lubricants designed to run in 180-240 range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 That schematic is for an autobox? Bypass to cooler for maximum residence time and cooling for minimum mix. Good. I'd filter it all coming out of the pump. You get metal bits, they land in the filter and not in your expensive thermostat valve, cooler, or anything else! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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