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My new 280Z project -- advice, please


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Thanks, Michael,

 

The engine appears to have been rebuilt--may even be a crate engine or from Jegs, Summit or some other supplier. I say this because the oil is crystal clear, the black paint on the block and oil pan is separated by clean gaskets and the freeze plugs are clean as a whistle. Normally, they discolor after the engine heats up. So, suspecting that the engine will be solid, I'll install it into the car, run it, and then see if it smokes, sounds bad or otherwise begs for a rebuild. So far the book I bought from CK Performance has been very helpful. It is literally a step-by-step manual. But I do check from time to time with the guys at the transmission shop to ensure I don't go too far off course. I am stuck right now awaiting parts deliveries. But I will have it finished by the time the weather warms enough for me to do more to the car. 

 

I did notice the other day that the brake master cylinder looks sketchy. One reservoir (front brakes) is dry and there are telltale traces of rust showing. Just light streaks, but clearly it needs replacement . . . or a rebuild, something I can do in the warm shop. I could, of course, buy a replacement. A stock part appears to go for over $200, but there are others around as cheap as $60.

 

Hmmm. I am trying to work within a budget, so the expensive one is out of the question. And the really cheap version makes me nervous. I'm thinking I'll end up with something safer if I do the rebuild. And a kit costs less than $10. I'm retired, so I have more time than free cash. But I'd like to hear from anyone who has rebuilt one of these.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I'm waiting on a few transmission parts--so far I've spent over $500 on parts and rebuild kits. For that reason, I have looked for other projects to do in the warm part of my shop. The steering wheel was rancid. Dirty, of course, but also the rubber around it was rotted and detached from the medal frame inside it. At some point I'll buy a hub and a new wheel, but in the meantime I thought I'd try refurbishing it.

 

I peeled off the rotted rubber, sanded the metal parts and shot it with Eastwood's satin black I had in the shop. Then I ordered--for less then $10 off eBay--a leather cover. At Home Depot I picked up some foam insulation for 1/2-inch pipe. It is spit and forms around the wheel nicely. But it was too bulky, so I cut away about 3/8-inch from one side. I cemented it on it two stages with Gorilla Glue, after first wetting the foam (that stuff reacts with water to foam up and then harden). I used masking tape to keep it in place while the glue set up. I did one half the wheel one day and the remainder the next. 

 

Then I stretched the leather cover over it and began stitching. There are a few videos on the net showing this process. Not hard, but it does take time and some concentration (I caught myself incorrectly stitching a couple times and had to pull stitches to make it right).

 

IMG_1725.JPG.c0d96f0938a0be92e6b114dcb2dccc58.JPGIMG_1730.JPG.143b3a4ad934a98e97542c40bc9d22bb.JPGIMG_1726.JPG.07cc6419c0f399b7c6c3a752772df515.JPGIMG_1728.JPG.326781d730d6b1ba11bceeeff1eb6240.JPGIMG_1731.JPG.2ff654b3702c7e57c421794a6b4246c4.JPGIMG_1737.JPG.61a25030f751097e7d80df4732140f2e.JPGMakes an okay wheel--not fantastic, but okay. It is a tad soft and squishy. But it does look far better than what was in place. And for less than $15 total cost, I'm pleased.  If I were doing it again, I'd put the seam at the bottom of the wheel, not the top. I covered the seam with some painter's fine-line tape, creating a contrasting stripe like some racing wheels use. I'll probably pull it off.

 

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Hi Seattle Jester,

 

Yep, maybe even too comfy. It's very soft, which wouldn't be great for track work, but likely will be fine for cruising--which is what I am building: a GT type machine.

 

I did test the foam and Gorilla Glue on a piece of rod before embarking on this. I let it cure over night and then tried to tear it loose. I was nicely attached. Over time? Who knows, but this will work while I attend to the many other things needed on this car. And it is far better than what came with the tired old car.

 

By the way, I am using the CK Performance book to rebuild the transmission. Great book, but  here and there he suggests using a .008 feeler gauge to push seals into place. Worked on most parts, but not on the lo/reverse piston (or whatever it is called). I tore up both the seal that came with the kit and the serviceable original. So I took the part into the transmission shop. They had new seals, and they handled installation for me. There is a specialized tool to do that job, and they own it. They also pressed out the worn stator from the pump and pressed in the new heat-treated one I purchased. I'll pick up both parts today, and then I will begin assembling the thing. Lots more difficult than rebuilding a 5-speed manual Alfa Romeo box. Lots!

 

 

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  • 4 weeks later...

I continue to struggle with the transmission rebuild. I have kept track of costs so far, and this $125 initial purchase has ballooned to a total $1,154.75. I keep a spreadsheet on my major projects, and am always amazed at how the little stuff really inflates the overall cost. The major outlays after the initial purchase were $238 for a rebuild kit; $204 to CK Performance for a heat-treated stator, a forward planetary gear cluster and a lock-up kit; and $381 for a band, a shift kit and 2.5 hours of labor from the transmission shop  (they have a press; I don't). All the rest to get to the total are little expenses for thrust washers, a hardened direct sun-shell (a deal at less than 30 bucks) and stuff to make tools to substitute for the exotic stuff that would make this job go quickly (including $21 at a wrecking yard for a used 27-spline slip-yoke that is helpful--almost necessary, in fact--for reassembly).

 

I am putting all the refurbished elements into the case now, and estimate I am 60 percent done with that. Why so slowly? Because there has been a lot of disassembly after putting parts in and finding clearances are off. Tear it back apart and swap out a selective washer (which means ordering the one you think should work, awaiting its arrival, and then finding it is just a few thousandths off and another needs to be ordered). 

 

For others crazy enough to tackle a 200-4R rebuild, I have found good information on the Buick Grand National forum and the K-Body GM forum.

 

Would I do this job again? Maybe. I have learned a lot, and following the CK Performance book I have made modifications that should result in a very strong transmission. On the other hand, I'll have about as much invested as a rebuilt stock unit--which would come with some kind of warranty and would work fine for the cruiser Z I am trying to build.

 

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  • 5 months later...

Now We Begin!

 

Okay, the old Wooden boat that was sitting ahead of the Z has been completed and is out of the shop. The 2004R Transmission I rebuilt over the winter is buttoned up and sealed in plastic (to shield it from all the sanding dust the wood boat project created).  It awaits a torque converter. The engine and TH350 transmission that came with this Z have been pulled and separated. And the engine is on a stand in the air-conditioned part of my shop, where I have been going through all stuff I can tidy up and deal with without tearing into it. I did pull the rocker covers, and am glad I did. They had the wrong gaskets (all crumpled up with gaps large enough to dump large quantities of oil out the sides and onto the exhaust headers. There was a nice surprise, however. The heads were clean and topped with roller rockers. They look new. 

 

When I pulled the headers off (to clean them up and get some VHT paint onto them, I found soot in the exhaust ports. Not a lot, and none was crusted up as you'd find in an old junk-yard engine. But clearly the engine has been run. It would be nice to think it was on a dyno because the insides are awesome--but that would be dreaming.

 

Whoever was putting this engine in was a sketchy mechanic, so I am hoping he isn't the one who rebuilt the engine--and I have good reason to think he wasn't (but that's a long story for another time). Why do I say sketchy? Well, the exhaust system was supported by the collector tubes at the front and a single hanger at the tailpipe, and nothing else. The motor mount bolts on both sides were finger tight. I didn't have to use a wrench to twist out all four of them. The alternator pulley did not align, and on close inspection, it turns out he used a long 15/16ths socket as a spacer--and of course it was not really the right length. And there was more.

 

But that's all background. I have a question that I have tried to research on this site and cannot find the answer. I have the JTR Manual, and in it I am informed that the harmonic damper must be 7.25 inches in diameter or smaller to use the JTR kit' mounts. My engine is an L31, the Vortec engine built in the late '90s, and the damper on it is  an 8-inch one. I cannot find a smaller one to fit this engine in a reasonable price range. There are many for small-blocks made earlier, but the only small one (a six-inch) is priced well north of three hundred bucks--which will take a big bite out of the budget. I can't stick with the Scarab mounts with this tall engine, since there will be no clearance for an air cleaner (a past owner had chopped a square hole in the hood, but I have a replacement hood and don't want a hole or a hump or a scoop).

 

So, here is the question: will the MSA kit allow me to keep the 8-inch damper? And will it drop the engine a bit lower to solve the hood issue? 

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So, here is the question: will the MSA kit allow me to keep the 8-inch damper? And will it drop the engine a bit lower to solve the hood issue?

 

I installed a SBC 350 in two 240Z projects using the MSA kit.  The MSA kit sits a bit higher and forward than the JTR kit.

 

 

Here is the 6.25in damper I am using.  Look at the  the application tab and see if will work for you.

 

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/flu-620101

 

 

 

Tomorrow I will take some measurements and pictures and post them here.

 

Edited by Miles
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Miles, thank you. The damper you have won't work on my engine. It will fit small blocks to 1995, and mine is later, when they changed the engine and began calling it a Vortec. Very few dampers seem to be available for that engine. But it if rhw MSA kitt allows it to sit higher, perhaps whatever clearance issue there is will still accommodate the 8-inch now on my engine. If you have a chance and can photograph around your damper where clearance might be an issue, I'd greatly appreciate it. The difference between a 7.25, which JTR says is max and my 8-inch is only 3/4 inch on the diameter--which on each side is only 3/8 inch. Seems like a difference that could be solved with shims using the JTR kit. But the MSA might solve it without any issues, and that would be great.

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2 hours ago, wingwalker said:

Miles, thank you. The damper you have won't work on my engine. It will fit small blocks to 1995, and mine is later, when they changed the engine and began calling it a Vortec. Very few dampers seem to be available for that engine. But it if rhw MSA kitt allows it to sit higher, perhaps whatever clearance issue there is will still accommodate the 8-inch now on my engine. If you have a chance and can photograph around your damper where clearance might be an issue, I'd greatly appreciate it. The difference between a 7.25, which JTR says is max and my 8-inch is only 3/4 inch on the diameter--which on each side is only 3/8 inch. Seems like a difference that could be solved with shims using the JTR kit. But the MSA might solve it without any issues, and that would be great.

 

Note:  This is a common problem. Search HybridZ , hotrod and chevy blogs.

 

Damper to steering rack spacing with 6.25 inch damper and MSA engine install is 0.47 inch.  An 8 inch damper will not work with the MSA install.

DAMPER CLEARENCE.jpg

Edited by Miles
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Miles, thank you again--above and beyond.

 

So it's back to the drawing board. There is a 6-inch available for my engine--but it approaches $400 (and then there is shipping). I'll call both suppliers and then post whatever I learn here.

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Miles, the dampers in the link you sent are close, but won't work on my engine--which is the Vortec (L31) engine. Close, but no cigar--my engine is also 5.7L, but it was engineered for Vortec heads and roller tappets and I don't know what else. It was for sure a deviation from the small blocks to that point and was used mostly in trucks and Suburbans. Thank you so much for looking.

 

I've scoured the Summit, Jegs and Speedway sites. GM doesn't offer one in less than 8-inch diameter (that I could find). Using Google I did find one last night from a supplier I had not heard of, but then it was going to take the better part of $500 to buy it and have it shipped. I am trying to do this on funds I received when I sold my Alfa Romeo last month--and they are limited. So I next call the folks at MSA and JTR to see if shimming might work.

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Random thoughts:

 

  • Talk to a technician at Summit. The Summit techs have solved some problems during by build.
  • Shimming  might be a solution, but be aware that shimming the engine will reduce hood clearance.
  • Note that the MSA trans mount allows for more flexibility for adjusting driveshaft angle because the mount fits up inside the driveshaft tunnel so you can can move the trans tail shaft several inches up/down to get the correct angle. Driveshaft angle  is a simple, but critical issue when doing Z car engine swaps.
  • The MSA engine mounts place the engine lower than the Scarab mounts, but not as low as the JTR install.
  • I have done two MSA installs. My second install using MSA engine mounts had a clearance problem with the steering shaft. The driver's side mount touched the steering shaft and the shaft touched the exhaust header collector. Both cars were 72 240Zs. I suspect that the MSA driver's side mount bolt holes were mis-drilled allowing the mount to twist towards the engine.
  • Engine-hood clearance issues -  raise the bridge or lower the river.
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Still no definitive answer on this question. I spoke with JTR, and the gent I spoke with is the brother of the man who wrote the book and did the engineering--who died a year ago. So, the brother had no firsthand knowledge of the damper issue. But he did note that they sell a spacer that will separate the front cross-member and the body by 3/8", which may solve the issue.

 

I also spoke with a salesperson at MSA, and he had no information. He did say they had sold lots of kits over 20 years and never had the question. So, perhaps the cross-member spacer from JTR would solve the issue for either kit. I have to think about this some. Miles has been very helpful.

 

Anyone else have information on dropping a L31 350 into a 280Z? Am I worrying about something that is not an issue. Or am I for sure going to have to buy a new damper, rent a puller, and then go through the mounting issues that may come with an after-market damper?

 

 

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Miles,

Thank you for the random thoughts--which are actually not random at all, but very well aimed. They came in after I had sent the last reply. I'm leaning toward the MSA kit, especially now that you bring up the drive-shaft angle issue. Flexibility is a huge positive.

 

Probably makes sense to buy the kit, drop the engine in and then deal with the typical fabrication problems as they come up.

 

There isn't a huge rush, as I have to clean up and paint the engine compartment first. Which, as I think about it, reminds me what a mess the wiring was in. I can devote some time to cleaning up the stock harness, pulling any unused wires, and then warpping the remaining wires neatly. Or I might just buy a Painless Wiring 18- or 20-fuse kit and follow instructions. But first, there are a few rust issues . . . . 

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If you go the Painless route, some HybridZ members have documented how to wire the turn signal/light combination switch.  I was considering this for my first 240Z project in which the POV had cut up the engine bay wiring. I was able to repair the wiring so didn't go Painless. Other wiring kits have been documented as well.

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Thanks for all the help, Miles. Very much appreciated.

 

I just got a call that my torque converter has come in, and in a little while I will go downtown and pick it up. It's for the 2004R transmission I rebuilt this winter. So, once it is on the front of the tranny, I can mate the transmission to the engine and all will be ready for the car. Still lots to do before I put it in, but it feels like progress.

 

Now I'll do that L31 search. 

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Still too hot to work in the part of my shop without air conditioning (which is where the Z resides), so I'm trying to get everything done on the engine and transmission to ensure they will be ready to drop in (after I have prepped the engine compartment).

 

So, using the JTR book I see that need to adapt the Z temp sender and oil-pressure sender to the Chevy engine. And this raises a question that I have not been able to find on this site or the net. There appear to be two spots on the engine that can accommodate a temp sender. I shot a photo of the engine and labeled the spots as A and B. I suspect it is B, but since an adapter is involved, I want to make sure. Here's a photo of the engine.

 

P1090036_LI.jpg

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