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Max_S

Help with brakes needed

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Hi everyone!

 

I’ve bereits reading around here and other places for a while, but I keep hitting opposing statements regarding conversions to all-around discs.

I plan on building a 240/260 to make around 220kw at the rear wheels, maybe a bit more.

At that power-level I’m required to run disc brakes all around.

Planned wheels are currently 16inch Volk TE37V or Minilites (the latter are supposedly a little easier to get approved).

I might get away with using custom made spacers, but I can’t use washers on the brakes or manipulate calipers/brackets visibly (as in, changing their shape/outline).

And I can only trim the backing plate, not remove it entirely.

Also, using brakets and calipers  from car-brands would be VERY favorable to aftermarket brands, but its no must-do.

 

As far as I have understood, I can use calipers from a Toyota 4Runner, with solid rotor calipers bolting right up while using vented rotors need the calipers to be sitting on spacers.

 

In the rear a 79 Maxima‘s bracket will let a 82-83 280ZX‘ rear rotor and caliper to bolt directly on.

With an adjustable proportioning-valve the two beakes should behave together nicely.

 

Did I get that right?

Or are there good other options you can recommend?

Rule of thumb is that the brakes have to be capable of reliably stopping a car that is stronger than the one they’re mounted on, so I‘d be happy to use the space 16“ wheels offer and "overbuild“ the brakes a little.

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Max

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Actually, more power does not "require" better brakes.  Speed and/or weight (mass) could use better brakes but they're not necessary.  Brakes are for stopping, when the engine is not producing power, because the throttle is closed.

 

The stock brakes work very well.  Lots of potential problems with the various "upgrades" out there.  Plan carefully.

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Have you read these yet?

https://forums.hybridz.org/topic/38592-brake-balance-faq/

https://forums.hybridz.org/topic/38499-brake-upgrade-faq/

 

2 hours ago, Max_S said:

In the rear a 79 Maxima‘s bracket will let a 82-83 280ZX‘ rear rotor and caliper to bolt directly on.

With an adjustable proportioning-valve the two beakes should behave together nicely. 

Well from personal experience I have done this set up and the front and rear brakes can not be balanced even with an adjustable proportioning valve. They work okay but this system is overly front biased resulting in the car pitching forward because the front brakes are overloaded and the rears aren't doing enough work.

A braking system has to be engineered for the car, I think if you put the stock brakes back into perfect working order and get a set of sticky tires you would be surprised well the car stops. That or go all the way and install one of the Wilwood brake kits offered by TTT,  ArizonaZcar or Silvermine.

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9 minutes ago, NewZed said:

Actually, more power does not "require" better brakes.  Speed and/or weight (mass) could use better brakes but they're not necessary.  Brakes are for stopping, when the engine is not producing power, because the throttle is closed.

 

The stock brakes work very well.  Lots of potential problems with the various "upgrades" out there.  Plan carefully.

I have to do as the "TÜV" in Germany says.
And they say I need upgraded brakes.

 

9 minutes ago, grannyknot said:

install one of the Wilwood brake kits offered by TTT,  ArizonaZcar or Silvermine.

I have two information-requests still out with tuning-companies, but the general understanding is that Wilwood and similar brakes are nearly impossible to get approved in Germany.
If I wouldn't have the German TÜV to deal with, I'd have gone with Wilwood brakes no questions asked, I know that they're great brakes.

Max

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6 minutes ago, Max_S said:

I have to do as the "TÜV" in Germany says.
And they say I need upgraded brakes.

 

Well, that's a bummer.  Odd requirement.  

 

Since you already have disc brakes up front, then swapping to ZX discs in the back might meet their requirements, and give a balanced system.  Seems simplest and most likely to work well when you're done.  Miles knows a lot about brakes @Miles

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1 minute ago, NewZed said:

 

Well, that's a bummer.  Odd requirement.  

 

Since you already have disc brakes up front, then swapping to ZX discs in the back might meet their requirements, and give a balanced system.  Seems simplest and most likely to work well when you're done.  Miles knows a lot about brakes @Miles


Well, it comes from a good place.
You see, a bunch of years ago most of the "tuning" was taking your Volkswagen, slapping a turbo on it (or an engine from a later one) and going stupid fast with it.
The brakes-rule is meant to ensure the deceleration is matched to the acceleration.
So I cannot leave stock brakes on a 300hp S30, not a chance.
The stupid thing, once again, is the paperwork.
Wilwoods, for example, have none, and are generally denied approval because they lack some dust-gasket.
The kicker?
That gasket is NOT legally necessary, it's just practical experience that most TÜV-engineers want you to have it (same reason I can't ditch the backing plate) claiming safety-concerns.

Max

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4 hours ago, Max_S said:

Hi everyone!

 

I’ve bereits reading around here and other places for a while, but I keep hitting opposing statements regarding conversions to all-around discs.

I plan on building a 240/260 to make around 220kw at the rear wheels, maybe a bit more.

At that power-level I’m required to run disc brakes all around.

Planned wheels are currently 16inch Volk TE37V or Minilites (the latter are supposedly a little easier to get approved).

I might get away with using custom made spacers, but I can’t use washers on the brakes or manipulate calipers/brackets visibly (as in, changing their shape/outline).

And I can only trim the backing plate, not remove it entirely.

Also, using brakets and calipers  from car-brands would be VERY favorable to aftermarket brands, but its no must-do.

 

As far as I have understood, I can use calipers from a Toyota 4Runner, with solid rotor calipers bolting right up while using vented rotors need the calipers to be sitting on spacers.

 

In the rear a 79 Maxima‘s bracket will let a 82-83 280ZX‘ rear rotor and caliper to bolt directly on.

With an adjustable proportioning-valve the two brakes should behave together nicely.  Not required. the Toyota-Maxima, Toyota-240SX and Toyota-280zx are all front biased approx 60% 40%. A proportioning valve reduces pressure so it would only make the balance worse.

 

Did I get that right?

Or are there good other options you can recommend?

Rule of thumb is that the brakes have to be capable of reliably stopping a car that is stronger than the one they’re mounted on, so I‘d be happy to use the space 16“ wheels offer and "overbuild“ the brakes a little.

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Max

 

Perhaps my set up would work for you:

 

Car: 1972 240Z SBC 350  300hp,  1989 Camaro five speed transmission,  R200 3.54 differential,  240 rear wheel HP.   Car is a daily driver and not raced.

  • Front: 1979 Toyota pickup S12+8 calipers with stock 240Z rotors. Do not use brake lines with banjo fittings.  The caliper is not machined for banjo fittings and they will leak.
  • Rear: 1989 240SX rear calipers with 1984 non-turbo 300ZX rotors. Has built in parking brake.
  • Master Cylinder:  1970 280ZX 15/16 in. bore
  • Booster: 1977 280Z 8.5 in booster.   The 280ZX 15/16 in. bore MC causes a stiff pedal. The 280Z booster corrects the brake feel more like stock. Have to re-drill the  bolt holes in the firewall.
  • SS braided flex lines
  • Brake pads:  Carbotech AX6 all four wheels. Excellent cold bite that bites harder as they warm up. Great for a daily driver.

I arrived at this set up after experimenting with all of the junk yard brake up grades appearing on various Z car websites.

 

 

This set up is well documented on HybridZ and other Z websites.

 

 

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9 hours ago, Miles said:
  • Front: 1979 Toyota pickup S12+8 calipers with stock 240Z rotors. Do not use brake lines with banjo fittings.  The caliper is not machined for banjo fittings and they will leak.
  • Rear: 1989 240SX rear calipers with 1984 non-turbo 300ZX rotors. Has built in parking brake.
  • Master Cylinder:  1970 280ZX 15/16 in. bore
  • Booster: 1977 280Z 8.5 in booster.   The 280ZX 15/16 in. bore MC causes a stiff pedal. The 280Z booster corrects the brake feel more like stock. Have to re-drill the  bolt holes in the firewall.
  • SS braided flex lines
  • Brake pads:  Carbotech AX6 all four wheels. Excellent cold bite that bites harder as they warm up. Great for a daily driver. 

Miles,  I currently have this exact setup on my Z but also have a Wilwood proportioning valve, are you saying if I remove it the braking should improve? Are you still running the stock proportioning valve or is your system wide open?

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I figured having that valve might help balancing brakes out, if the fronts come from a rather big 4x4 and the rears from a small sedan.
The car is under a metric ton (1000kg), so I assumed that things like good brake-balance are quite important.

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7 hours ago, grannyknot said:

Miles,  I currently have this exact setup on my Z but also have a Wilwood proportioning valve, are you saying if I remove it the braking should improve? Are you still running the stock proportioning valve or is your system wide open?

 

Grannyknot

 

When I was testing the various popular brake swaps (Toyota, Maxima, 240SX etc) I thought I might need an adjustable proportioning valve (PV) to experiment with front and rear balance due to caliper and/or pad changes. For example, running more aggressive pads on the rear to compensate for too much front brake bias as many owners of track cars do. But, I found that all of the brake swaps I did were all basically biased 60% front and 40% rear making an adjustable PV unnecessary and using aggressive pads on the rear to achieve better brake balance not safe for a street car where you want predictability. I did install  a Wilwood PV in the tool compartment on the passenger side so I could adjust the PV while road testing the various brake/pad combinations. I never had to use the PV because all of the brake combinations, for  example  the Maxima or 240SX rears,  are weak and planned on removing the PV,  but it is still in place and run wide open (too lazy to remove it).

 

Note: some people running the Toyota solid rotor front and 240SX rear combination just gut the stock proportioning valve located in the rear of the car so the PV just becomes a three way connecting block. See the brake forum for examples.

 

The most notable improvement I made to the Toyota solid rotor front and 240SX rear setup was swapping the 7 inch 240Z booster for the 8.5 inch 280Z booster and installing Carbotech AX6 brake pads. The car brakes well with minimum pedal effort. My only complaint is that there is a bit of slack in the pedal due to the fluid volume requirements of the calipers.

Edited by Miles

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4 hours ago, Max_S said:

I figured having that valve might help balancing brakes out, if the fronts come from a rather big 4x4 and the rears from a small sedan.
The car is under a metric ton (1000kg), so I assumed that things like good brake-balance are quite important.

 

Max:

 

Also, see my response to Grannyknott.

 

An adjustable proportioning valve only reduces pressure. Consequently, if your rear calipers are not keeping up with the front brakes then reducing the pressure with a PV makes it worse.

 

For example, all of these combinations are front biased about 60% front and 40% rear:

 

  • Toyota solid/vented front with 240SX or Maxima or 280ZX rear calipers.

 

However, at some point you may want to experiment with new brake configurations where an adjustable PV  would be necessary (if allowed by TUV).

 

Opinion:

  • Well maintained stock brakes are fine for street use. Some people track their Z cars with stock brakes and like the results.
  • Changing brake components causes a domino effect. For example, bigger/multiple caliper bores require more fluid volume which means installing a larger bore master cylinder which requires more pedal effort to stop the car.
  • Recommend that you research what others have done that meets TUV approval. Germany has a lot of  hot rod clubs so there must be some way the hot rod people are making the TUV engineers happy. Check out the German car clubs on YouTube.
  • I have worked out the bugs with my set up (Toyota solid front, 240SX rear, 280Z booster, 1979 280ZX master cylinder. Carbotech AX6 pads) and am happy with it as a daily driver.

 

 

 

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I'll look more into US-cars.
Most HotRods I know here in Germany are either on stock brakes or simply not road legal but run temporary plates.
Unfortunately 99% of the German JDM-community is with more modern cars and/or stock power, so there's either no brake-swapping needed or it's as easy as just going and buying a TÜV-approved package.
Datsuns are nearly non-existent over here, much less modified ones.
I've found two guys with some helpful information.
One guy managed to get modified Wilwoods approved (adding dust-gaskets from a different brake manufacturer) after consulting a bunch of different TÜV-engineers, another one runs Nissan Skyline brakes because, pretty much, he knows his local TÜV-engineer :(
Which is probably the only way to get custom spacers approved.

As for the proportioning valve, that was a simple misunderstanding, I thought it would control how many percent go to witch end of the car.
 

3 hours ago, Miles said:

Well maintained stock brakes are fine for street use. Some people track their Z cars with stock brakes and like the results.

Unfortunately, that's still no option.
I want more power than stock, so I need to change the brakes.
Doesn't have to make sense to be a law/rule.

Currently I'm looking into modifying Wilwoods as well, or using the Toyota 4x4 (front)/ZX (rear) version (although, further up, I've heard from @grannyknotthat it's a bad combination :().
I'm going to sink a lot of time, money and bureaucratic effort into this, and (understandably, I assume) I want the result to be as close to perfect as I can legally get.

Max

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15 minutes ago, Max_S said:

I want more power than stock, so I need to change the brakes.


Currently I'm looking into modifying Wilwoods as well, or using the Toyota 4x4 (front)/ZX (rear) version 

 

When I read your first post I thought that you meant that you needed disc brakes on all four wheels.  Why do you need to change the calipers on the front? Why can't you leave the Z calipers on?   

 

What is the specification that you are trying to meet?  It can't be just "change".

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That's the problematic point.
There is no defined specification to be reached.
I have to improve all 4 brakes (drums are a total no-go, but the front discs have to leave too), and the better/stronger the brakes I throw in there are the better my chances of approval, IF the parts used can be approved, which is easier with car-manufacturer-brakes than, say, Wilwoods.
There's TÜV-engineers who just want to see big discs and more pistons, there's TÜV-engineers who do brake-tests and if you decelerate worse than (or even only the same as) stock you fail, and there's ones who just want to see proof (paperwork, photos) that show you ditching the old stock brakes.
For a long time, it was also not uncommon for TÜV-engineers to jam the brake-pedal, step on the gas and the car wasn't allowed to move, but that's not really done anymore.

 

In short, the stock brakes have to go, I need discs all around, and the stronger they are the better my chances at getting the car approved (on a side note, it of course isn't bad to have the best possible brakes on the car).

To compare, in the VAG-scene, if they dump a later engine into an early Golf, the accepted way is to use the donor car's brakes.
That's not really a sensible option on the S30, so I need to find another way.
"Condensed down" I'm trying to find a way to get a lot of braking-power out of the space 16" wheels leave, meaning good/large discs all around, with more than 1 piston calipers and good pads.
Because it doesn't hurt to stop very good very reliably, and it makes getting the project-car approved (and re-approved every 2 years) a lot easier.

Max

Edited by Max_S

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I never would have imagined that Germany could be more screwed up than the USA, in the area of motor vehicles.  

 

You're saying the "test" is almost completely subjective?  You pass if you get a good engineer, fail if you get a bad one?  That's goofy.

 

In that case, use the Toyota calipers up front and 240SX rear brakes.  Shiny new big.  Good thing they don't look at the wheel and suspension parts.  Good luck.

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4 minutes ago, NewZed said:

I never would have imagined that Germany could be more screwed up than the USA, in the area of motor vehicles.  

 

You're saying the "test" is almost completely subjective?  You pass if you get a good engineer, fail if you get a bad one?  That's goofy.

 

In that case, use the Toyota calipers up front and 240SX rear brakes.  Shiny new big.  Good thing they don't look at the wheel and suspension parts.  Good luck.

 

Yep. All Japanese. The Toyota and the Nissan 240Z calipers were made by the same company. The 240SX calipers are Japanese, made by Nissan, have integrated parking brake, use a big 300ZX non-turbo rotor,  and the kits are available from several sources.  They all have dust seals.

 

Good luck

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Exactly that.
Any approval, and also the decision if an approval is revoked or not (you have to revisit the TÜV every 2 years) is subjective to the engineers.
With me planning on putting out more than 20% power more than the car made stock, I might have to hand off the keys for a driving test, where the engineer (or sometimes two) decide if the rest of the car (chassis, suspension, brakes, wheels, steering) is up to the increased power.
 

18 minutes ago, NewZed said:

Good thing they don't look at the wheel and suspension parts

Actually...they do.
Like, even more closely than at the brakes.
Most foreign wheels are off limits due to missing certificates, but I found a company around 600km away (around 370 miles) who claim (and already have) managed to get TE37 and also Minilites approved, two wheels which are at the top of my list as of right now (re-drilling perfectly legal wheels makes them 100% illegal, since the structural integrity is seen as being compromised).
As for suspension, I might save up for and invest in KW Clubsport, since they offer those custom-made and matched to the car, with all documentation needed to get approval.
And KW is a known and trusted brand.
 

18 minutes ago, NewZed said:

Good luck

Thanks 😃

 

14 minutes ago, Miles said:

Have you contacted Wilwood to see if they could add the dust seals (gaskets)  to  one of their calipers?

 

Wilwood now offers a rear caliper with integrated parking brake.

I doubt that Wilwood will change an off-the-shelf product for one set for one customer.
But I will certainly look into that (not the only custom-parts needed for the project, so why stop there).
If I go with their brand, I'll probably do what that other guy on the German forum did, and put in the matching seals from an AP-Brakes system.

A parking brake of some sort HAS to be on the car, not just for practical reason but also because it actually is a defined law, not some rule made up by the TÜV.
A mechanical-one is by far preferred, since I've so far heard of only one guy getting a hydraulic one approved, only to loose approval over safety-concerns after 3 months (police checkpoint, and they spotted the big vertical lever).

The brakes are pretty much the last big unknown point, the rest of the components are worked out and decided.
I hope to find a TÜV-engineer who goes "yeah....it could work" (did I mention that engineers get swapped out regularly, so one guy telling you it will work is worth very little?) at some point in early summer 2019, and if everything else in life works out as planned (as if it ever does) I might get to start seriously looking for parts and a car to import (there's like 200 in Germany, and they're crazy expensive for ripping apart) in late summer/fall.
I definitely have to do it in that order, the TÜV is famously (and increasingly) hostile towards any tuning beyond lowering springs and a wrap (and even there's restrictions), so just one day turning up at the TÜV-station with a modified car is a sure way to get to walk home/find a tow truck.
It's well known (and kinda sad) that you can drive a pretty worn out/damaged car, and get through TÜV (or at least a police checkpoint), but if it draws attention for any reason you're in for a really bad time, even if everything is perfectly up to requirements, just because it MIGHT not be perfectly legal.
And finding out if everything is legal takes time (with you without a car) and is expensive (at your expense).

Max

Edited by Max_S

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On 12/30/2018 at 6:27 PM, Max_S said:

Currently I'm looking into modifying Wilwoods as well, or using the Toyota 4x4 (front)/ZX (rear) version (although, further up, I've heard from @grannyknotthat it's a bad combination :().

Max, I did not say it is a bad combination, I said they work okay.  None of the popular low dollar brake swaps are balanced as well as the stock brakes but that doesn't mean they are bad combinations, just not as good as they could be. Because so many of us are, how shall I say.. thrifty.. with our spending is why the junk yard brake swaps are so popular.

I recommened  either stock or Wilwood,  neither of those seem like a posibility  for you  so it looks like you will have to go with one of the combos.

What's the old saying, You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.  Good brakes aren't cheap.

 

 

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I’ll certainly keep an eye on that combination, I just want it to be a project with no cut corners, if I can get it approved.

From the choices I have, the Toyota/ZX-combo is the “easy button”.

Wilwoods might work stock, better chances with the option of adding those seals.

(As in, talking to the TÜV I could say I can get them dust-sealed, raising my chances).

 

As said above I also got a guy on a German forum who’s running Skyline brakes with a custom spacer (he’s on here too).

I’ve NEVER seen something like a self made spacer for brakes being approved, but with me already needing special approval for a ton of parts (engine, gearbox, seats, cage, seatbelts, suspension, wheels...) I might just consult the TÜV on that as well.

The biggest problem is the car’s rarity over here, so there’s next to no parts that have a decent approval chance.

Stock is no option, but if there were, say, super expensive Brembos with full certification that bolt up, I would probably not think much about not doing it.

But that option doesn’t exist, and I don’t want to sink endless money into parts getting denied.

Its part of why I’ll most likely invest in custom KW Clubsport Suspension.

Full paperwork, and it bolts right up AND performs well.

 

Max

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I honestly don’t know.

They usually want to see them on cars though, and you can’t mount motorbike brakes on a car and get away with it.

Doesn‘t really make sense, but it doesn’t have to.

Same way OEM valved exhausts are legal but aftermarket ones (or even retro-fitting them) aren't.

 

Max

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