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BJSZED

Techno Toy Tuning Micro Rear Brake Kit or Motorsport Auto Rear Disk Kit?

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Posted (edited)

Looking at replacing my rear drums on the 240z. I was going to order the motorsport auto complete rear disk kit but then found the techno tuning micro rear brake kit, with integrated hand brake .

 

My braking system is otherwise stock and I have no intention of changing the stock master cylinder or stock front brakes. I understand that the motorsport auto kit will work well with my setup. My question is if the techno kit uses a caliper with 4 pistons, would that not be too much rear braking? Techno says it is designed to work with stock components and a proportioning valve is not required.

 

Guess, I am hoping someone else has tried the Techno Tuning kit ?

Edited by BJSZED

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Why do you want disc brakes on the rear?  I ask because any kind of brake on the back is still only get the set amount of brake fluid pressure that the M/C and stock proportioning valve will allow and that amount is just right for the stock drums. Or I should say just the right amount for the rear wheel cylinders, it is engineered to be a balanced system.

Putting disc brakes on the rear with everything else in the system being stock could lead to the calipers not applying enough pressure making stop times longer or they may lock up the rear sooner than the front which really is not a good thing.

 

After having tried all the usual brake combinations that are popular for 240z's I can say with conviction, If you want better brakes then remove the stock balanced system and replace it with another balanced system, a system that has been designed to work together.

 

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Posted (edited)

Thanks for the reply.

 

The drum set-up is done and I prefer disks all around. They don't need to work better but they do need to work the same. I do want a balanced system so if changing to disks on the back messes that up, I will stick to drums.

 

But, from what i have read on this site, If I keep the stock front calipers and master cylinder and go with the Maxima rear disk swap from motorsport Auto, the system should work well. If that is not the case, feel free to educate me.

 

The techno setup is new so I was concerned that I would need to replace everything as a system which I don't want to do. The following was their response to my emails.

 

...........................................

Would this kit work with the stock front 240z brakes? I'm guessing it is designed to work when both front and rear brakes are upgraded.

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Yes, it will be compatible with the factory front brakes. We build everything to be backwards compatible wherever possible. In the end you'd likely want to upgrade the front brakes, but it doesn't have to be done right away. The rears are really easy to install. Just remove the factory drum brakes, mount the bracket, slip the rotor on and bolt the caliper on. Then run the new E-brake to the calipers. It bolts in just like factory. 

...............................................

 

One last question, i would need an adjustable proportioning valve with your brakes on the rear and stock on the front ?

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Nope. All our parts are meant to work with the factory hydraulics. You could add one if you like, but it is not necessary.

Edited by BJSZED

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I have a 280ZX setup that was on my car for over a year and worked fine with stock fronts but you will need to remove the proportioning valve and retention valve in the the MC. I recently upgraded to the SM Wilwood kit because even with $200 hawk pads they were getting cooked at the track. If your car never leaves the highway this won't matter.

 

Please don't take what TTT told you at face value. I swapped an SBC in my garage and the rear disk swap was 10x more frustrating to finally get everything working. Also make sure you're aware of what is required to remove the backing plates. 

 

You need an adjustable prop valve. TTTs statement doesn't even make sense, if you don't need a prop valve then upgrading the fronts later would be pointless and throw off bias... Just saying

 

There is a reason to swap to disks, just do it right or you will end up wasting time and money. 

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Posted (edited)

I really think you are upgrading in the wrong order.  The front brakes end up being 70-80% of what stops your Z car.  I would say that Techno Toys has a great reputation on building good products but for the money I think that is a waste.  For around the same cost I would recommend the Arizona Z car 12.5 vented Wilwoood kit for the front for $795 and use the $129 Master (Which is a Datsun stock MC used in later model Z's) they sell that works well with the stock drums or if you decide later to upgrade the rears to disc brakes.  Why spend what it costs to get really good front brakes?  You are not going to feel any real improvement until you upgrade the front brakes.  http://www.arizonazcar.com/brake.html  I put this setup on my wife's 240Z and it stops great and the pedal feel is very nice.

 

I would do the front brakes first and if you had $350 more in your budget I would bump the Arizona Z car front up to a 6 piston caliber and if you have another $200 I would upgrade the rotors to 13"; I would do those upgrade before even contemplating rear disc upgrades as the fronts are where it matters period.

 

 

 

Edited by primaz

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2 hours ago, primaz said:

I would do the front brakes first and if you had $350 more in your budget I would bump the Arizona Z car front up to a 6 piston caliber and if you have another $200 I would upgrade the rotors to 13"; I would do those upgrade before even contemplating rear disc upgrades as the fronts are where it matters period.

 

Unless you're doing track/road race with a lot of weight or HP, 6 piston/13" rotors are way overkill, doubly so if you still have drum rears. 6 piston fronts usually allow for more pad area, more even pad wear and provide the proper balance for a 4 piston rear caliper. A 13" rotor will give you marginally better stopping torque, but also dramatically increases the price of the rotors you'll be replacing. 

 

On 8/4/2020 at 6:17 PM, Twisted46 said:

You need an adjustable prop valve. TTTs statement doesn't even make sense, if you don't need a prop valve then upgrading the fronts later would be pointless and throw off bias... Just saying

 

Without knowing which of the FSL4R calipers T3 is selling in this kit, it's premature to assume you'd need a prop valve. The smallest size Wilwood caliper would be about in line and allow the factory fronts to be used. Factory front piston area is ~3.1in^2, and the smallest FSL4R is 1.98in^2. A bit rear biased, but if you factor in the pressure drop by leaving all the stock drum plumbing in, they probably are a reasonable match. 

 

As @grannyknot said, you want to make sure you consider the entirety of the brake system. Just replacing the drum rears will result in a thoroughly sub optimal brake system. 

 

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@BJSZED, I didn't see anything in your posts regarding the intended application for the car; and why you're wanting to do any brake upgrades in the first place.  Did I miss that info somewhere?

 

Hard to give a meaningful recommendation without that. 

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Posted (edited)

It sounds like his drum brakes are at the end of life (pads or drums or both) and he wants to go in a different direction.

 

The T3 cables for the hand brakes will require some modification to make fit.  The retaining collar on the T3 cables are different than the OEM.  The part that sits in the body bracket (above the driveshaft/diff) on the OEM one is ~7/16" and the T3 one is ~9/16".  You will have to either drill out the bracket to 9/16" or modify the cable (a few options here).  Info is for '71.

 

 

ebrake_collar.jpg

Edited by LooseRocks

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6 hours ago, LooseRocks said:

It sounds like his drum brakes are at the end of life (pads or drums or both) and he wants to go in a different direction.

 

The T3 cables for the hand brakes will require some modification to make fit.  The retaining collar on the T3 cables are different than the OEM.  The part that sits in the body bracket (above the driveshaft/diff) on the OEM one is ~7/16" and the T3 one is ~9/16".  You will have to either drill out the bracket to 9/16" or modify the cable (a few options here).  Info is for '71.

 

 

ebrake_collar.jpg

Silverminemotors hand brake cable is exactly the same, very frustrating to get under the car and start fitting the cable and then find out that it doesn't fit. Basically you have to reach up to the body bracket with long slot screw driver and pry the bracket open enough to fit the larger diameter.  Stuff like this could easily have been modified during the manufacture of the cable.

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For every car that I've ever played with the aftermarket has always been suspect.  Even the reputable vendors will take some shortcuts.  Parts don't fit and you need to grind/chop on them or grind/chop on the cart to make it work.  I'm OK with that.  I just wished they were all up front about it.  I just want to understand the scope of the work before I start.  I modified the cable to fit the car.  A dremel with a cut off wheel is magic/tragic for fixing/destroying parts (and fingers).

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Posted (edited)
On 8/12/2020 at 11:04 AM, jhm said:

@BJSZED, I didn't see anything in your posts regarding the intended application for the car; and why you're wanting to do any brake upgrades in the first place.  Did I miss that info somewhere?

 

Hard to give a meaningful recommendation without that. 

 

The car is just driven on the street but hard and Iwant to ditch the drums, everything is worn out back there. The disks don't need to work better, just need to work equivalently. I believe the rear caliper on the T3 micro rear kit uses 4 pistons with a combined total area equivalent to one piston with a diameter of 1.5 inches....can't remember exactly.

Edited by BJSZED

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Posted (edited)

OK, thx.  If your mind is set on rear disk conversion, I would include Silvermine Motors in your search.  They offer several kits to choose from and their cheapest rear kit is less than MSA and seems to give you more for your money, except for the parking brake cable brackets.

 

Also, it's very possible that you will need/want a proportioning valve, regardless of which rear disk option you go with...even if the vendor tells you "prop valve not required".  When your rear brakes are locking up well before your fronts, that's an unhappy situation.  Will depend on many variables, and you may not know for sure until you've completed the conversion.  You can get a decent Wilwood valve for $45.

 

Lastly, have you read through all the FAQs threads on rear disk conversions?  If not, check it out.  Also, you can Google search "HybridZ rear disk conversions" and get a bunch of write-ups from people that have already installed all of these kits at one point or another.

Edited by jhm

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On 8/12/2020 at 2:51 AM, Ben280 said:

Without knowing which of the FSL4R calipers T3 is selling in this kit, it's premature to assume you'd need a prop valve. The smallest size Wilwood caliper would be about in line and allow the factory fronts to be used. Factory front piston area is ~3.1in^2, and the smallest FSL4R is 1.98in^2. A bit rear biased, but if you factor in the pressure drop by leaving all the stock drum plumbing in, they probably are a reasonable match.

 

I get what you are saying but there are so many other factors that play in to bias like rotor diameter and pad compound  and it seems irresponsible to tell a customer that. 

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3 hours ago, Twisted46 said:

 

I get what you are saying but there are so many other factors that play in to bias like rotor diameter and pad compound  and it seems irresponsible to tell a customer that. 

 

Pad compound and rotor size have very little impact on overall bias. They can be used to tune in brake feel, but it's within a few percent and at the end of the day, don't effect clamping force. At the end of the day you need to start with the correct piston stagger, which I'd hope T3 can figure out. A prop valve certainly would be a good addition, I won't dispute that. 

 

I do wish generally that these companies would tell you what calipers they use. Saying "Wilwood 4 piston" is about as useful as saying "New calipers" since Wilwood has so many caliper piston sizes within the models. The tools and calculators exist for people to figure this all out, but the companies need to give us the information.

 

Anetcodaly we all know the rears see less pressure due to the factory prop valve, residual valve, drum cylinders etc, but does anyone have actual numbers?

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4 minutes ago, Ben280 said:

I do wish generally that these companies would tell you what calipers they use. Saying "Wilwood 4 piston" is about as useful as saying "New calipers" since Wilwood has so many caliper piston sizes within the models. The tools and calculators exist for people to figure this all out, but the companies need to give us the information.

 

Anetcodaly we all know the rears see less pressure due to the factory prop valve, residual valve, drum cylinders etc, but does anyone have actual numbers?

Amen to that, part of the reason I went with SMM is because they spell out the calipers and rotors used in their descriptions along with useful specs. I priced it out as if I sourced all the parts from other big name vendors and the SMM kit was just a few dollars over me sourcing the best pricing I could find.Transparency is key to product sales for me. That said TTT makes some wicked stuff and I am happy with my purchases from them.   

 

I would love to know that too, it would be nice to have a baseline to work off of. I am running ~56/44  ATM and it feels great. 

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