jeffp Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 I am in the process of building the engine to 600Hp and that will be good enough for me. All of you are correct, you will spend big bucks getting a car to run that kind of power and put it to the ground and not spit your tranny out the rear of the car in the process. That has been my big problem since my last build. I knew I was at the limit of my tranny, and had some serious concerns in the LSD in the car. The cam also needed some work as I need to increase the duration on the exhaust side a little to get some better flow out of the exhaust. So what have I done, well I have a new Tremec TKO2 that is just waiting to go in the car. I am just waiting on a reamer for the pilot bushing and it will be in the car. I have a new Quaife ready to go in, and I still have to have the drive line made. The turbo I think is a good combination of compressor and exhaust turbine, but the first run on it will be where the rubber meets the road. I have new 72Lb injectors to install, and a retune from Clark at JWT (and James we wont get into how I should get a different fuel management system LOL) anyway that is what it takes, and still, there is some consideration on the intercooler I am running, and the size of the T/B and the list goes on. Bottom line is I think I will be able to run the Hp to 600 with the new setup, but again the complete system will be maxed out to do it, and hey that is alright with me. I really dont want to make any more power then that. I would basically have to rebuild the whole car if I want any more, and that includes the chassis and I really dont want to go there. If I was going to do anything more then that, I would just start with a gutted car and build accordingly, but I want to run my car on the street and not make it a trailer queen just to run a little faster. I did a quicky calculation, and 600hp with the weight of the car @ 3200lb will get me to a 10.07 best case through the 1/4 that is fast enough. I think James will be better equipped to do that kind of run with his auto tranny, that is really pushing it hard to try to get my 5 speed to get the car that fast and shifting and all that stuff. anyway, I am trying to get to the 600hp range and still be able to run the car on the street, and I have been suscessful to this point with the exception of the clutch, that sucker is notchy now but it has to be radical just to hold the power on the 240mm flywheel. There were also other concerns like the cooling, that I think I have taken care of with the new cross flow radiator, but again, I wont know for sure until I run the car down the road and see what kind of results I get with it. Then there was the issue of the oil pan and throwing the oil away from the pump pickup under heavy acceleration. Then there is the issue of tires, Will M/T 8.5 wrinkle wall tires be good enough to get the power to the ground? Good question, I am sure it will be right on the edge in that respect, so there are just so many factors to deal with, all of them are costly no question about that, but we will see. It's going to be another few months until I will be able to start the car again, I just have to many mods to complete to get it done in a short time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lockjaw Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Hey Jeff, there was a guy at our local drag strip running high 10's with supra TT and he was not running really wide slicks, so I would hope you would be able to put the power down. Be nice to see someone drop to low 10's in a street car. I would also be interested in how the large injectors work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
240Z Turbo Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Jeff, that is 600hp @wheels to get the 10.07 right? BTW, there is no way the 4N71B would run deep into the 10's. However, I bet an 1800lb Z car can use the 3N71B and run into the high 9's. Picked up my 200-4R shell today to mockup in the trans tunnel for clearance issues. I also realize the necessity of getting a stronger trans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lockjaw Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 What are you going to do with the 4 speed James? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 BlackBob, Since Im' in the middle of research on the SR20 family of motors, I can pretty much state that there aren't any current projects in the US with a TTsetup using the SR20, none that are documented anyways. I also asked the editor of Turbo & Hi Tech and the answer I got back was Not that he was aware... BTW, What is your full time occupation??? In your profile you list Paintball Field Ref., I'm just curious. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
240Z Turbo Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 What are you going to do with the 4 speed James? Sell it, interested? You would want to have a rebuild done on it, but the valve body mods are done and it has a custom converter/driveshaft. It will all bolt up, but would require you to fab a tranny mount Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lockjaw Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Yeah I may be, but it will be a little while, are you in a hurry? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Nothing at all !!!! I'm still looking for a job so it's hard all teh way around... ~BB~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DaneL24 Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Back to what I was saying...as far as 8000 RPM goes, I didn't mean that as literally as you think. The point is that the motor would need a really high powerband to make serious HP numbers. Maybe I shouldn't have listed a specific RPM...it just needs a really high powerband, and lots of torque up at those RPMs to make serious HP. For that high powerband, not only should the turbo hit peak efficiency at high RPMs, but also the cam and the port velocity. It doesn't make sense to mismatch the efficiency ranges of the cam and turbo if you want a lot of power. If the HP can be made through a combination of high powerband and extra boost...as opposed to just a s**tload of boost with power peaking at 6000 RPM, I think those high HP numbers would be a lot easier to reach. And considering that with the high powerband there will be less torque at the same peak HP...the decrease in torque at the same peak HP might help in reliability of drivetrain parts and reduce body flex. Because it is torque, not HP that breaks all these parts. I do realize that the best way to deal with the intake heat is to have a crossflow head in the first place, but we can thank Nissan for that one (unless you have a custom head or RB swap). I just think that surely a decent cooling system can be designed for the intake manifold to at least minimize if not completely eliminate the heat problem. Heavy insulation at the minimum...and maybe even a waterjacketed cooling system between the intake and exhaust for even better cooling. JeffP what RPM does your motors power peak at, and how much torque does it have? You have a ZX right? It would be pretty cool to see your motor in an early 240Z, maybe could break 10 sec in the quarter if it has a calculated 10.07 in a ZX. Body flex could be an issue in a 240, not to mention traction, but it would still be cool to see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 Maybe we should stick to RB swaps and forget the L28 ever existed....???? ~BB~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffp Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 I am amking good torque with the engine 473 foot pounds @ 415 hp. I have the dyno results listed on my web page at http://www.angelfire.com/extreme/280zxt/page19.html I was beginning to work on the torque curve with the cam timing when I was stopped dead in my tracks when I found out the damper was out to lunch. I had no way of indexing the cam to TDC so that is when I decided to start the last of the upgrades. I was not sure if the cam was running out of breathing, or the turbo was just running out of air. I am running the cam about 4 degrees retarded right now, so I was going to put it up on TDC and see what the results were. I think I was running out of cam, and out of turbo, but I will find out what the real story is when I get the new parts installed and going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lockjaw Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 I think if you want to turn some RPM's, you really need to have a lot of flow available thru the runners on the head since the valves are not open as long as rpms increase. Someone correct me if I am wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 BlackBob, I don't think that "Forgetting the L28 ever existed" is the answer. I think the answer is to recognize the limits, research and experiment to overcome the limits, design changes to overcome the limits, or live within the limits. Not sure how many Zmotors you've had a hand building, or how long you've been into Zs, but the issues being discussed by Guys like James, Jeff, DaneL24 and others are the same issues and problems people like Bob Sharp Racing, Electramotive, and other Nissan teams struggled with back in the day. Only difference is that the members here have been more successfull recently (With the technological advances of the last two decades) in getting around the limitations, only to have them resurface later on, if at much higher output. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lockjaw Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 Limits suck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DaneL24 Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 Lockjaw: Yeah...thats why I'm so adamant about camming and porting turbo motors, I just don't think it can be ignored. You need the high RPM breathing for those HP numbers, not just the torque from the boost. And yeah limits suck, but maybe we haven't reached them yet. Blackbob: The L28ET is the turbo motor for us po' folks. Most people spend at least two grand to turbocharge their car, but I can drop an L28ET in my car for less than a grand. An RB swap would be an initial investment of about five grand, maybe more. For the cost of swapping an RB motor, you could build an L28ET to be pretty stout...I'm talking turbo upgrade, head porting/camming, forged pistons, efficient intercooler, standalone EFI, etc. I'm not about to forget the L28ET. Even 300 HP which is relatively easy to attain from the L28ET is more than enough to get my 2300 lb. car movin. But look at JeffP, in the best conditions and circumstances he might run a low 10 in his ZX. His motor in a 240Z might have 9 sec potential if somebody were willing to put the time and money into it. A 9 sec run would earn the L28ET a lot more respect, thats for sure. Getting a Z to run 9s with an RB26 would be a lot easier...but I already mentioned the pros and cons. BTW, those high HP 2JZ motors have very high and narrow powerbands, and most lower HP L28ETs have a wide mid-range powerband, which accounts for some of the HP differences. JeffP: Has your head been ported? Just curious. Thats some killer torque you have going, just gotta make it breath better to peak at a higher RPM...but thats why your trying to figure out if your running out of cam or turbo isn't it? I think we should look into the details of what Electromotive did and go from there. They were cranking out 600 HP from a 2.8 liter, not even a stroker like JeffPs got. I'd like to know what cam and turbo they were using back then. Its easier to make an L28 breath at high RPM than a 3.1 stroker, but the stroker will make more torque. Maybe with enough head work the stroker can be made to peak high though. Not to mention a good method for protecting the intake from exhaust heat... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lockjaw Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 Well I can answer the turbo question, in a generality, it was a t4, and I would say a B series if I had to guess. Corky Bell would likely know. Jeff's head is ported, I know that from talking to him, but not the details. I agree with you about the powerband thing. I just put a mild cam in my car and it is a different animal, still comes on hard about the same rpm, just carries it to the 7k redline nicer. Of course I am not ported. I would also speculate that the 600 hp the electromotive car made was flywheel hp, so people like James and Jeff are already pretty close. I want to go to one of the new ball bearing turbo's eventually, and see if I can get good power from 3000 to about 6800 to 7200. Having a nice wide powerband would have to make the car faster then just some big high peak number. Making sure all the flow paths are smooth would help too. One of the things I am considering is using the 240 crank this time, and boring out to 89mm and see what happens. Should really buzz up there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 Blackbob:The L28ET is the turbo motor for us po' folks. Most people spend at least two grand to turbocharge their car' date=' but I can drop an L28ET in my car for less than a grand. An RB swap would be an initial investment of about five grand, maybe more. For the cost of swapping an RB motor, you could build an L28ET to be pretty stout...I'm talking turbo upgrade, head porting/camming, forged pistons, efficient intercooler, standalone EFI, etc. I'm not about to forget the L28ET. Even 300 HP which is relatively easy to attain from the L28ET is more than enough to get my 2300 lb. car movin. But look at JeffP, in the best conditions and circumstances he might run a low 10 in his ZX. His motor in a 240Z might have 9 sec potential if somebody were willing to put the time and money into it. A 9 sec run would earn the L28ET a lot more respect, thats for sure. Getting a Z to run 9s with an RB26 would be a lot easier...but I already mentioned the pros and cons. BTW, those high HP 2JZ motors have very high and narrow powerbands, and most lower HP L28ETs have a wide mid-range powerband, which accounts for some of the HP differences. [/quote'] Well now that I think about it. If the head is the only thing stopping us. then really getting a L series motor to run 9's at the right place at the right time is all we need. Think about it people in general are a bunch of sheep. And in order to sell something you need to give them a reason. Look at the first F&F no one really knew nore cared of the limits the honda,nissan,or any other typical import/sportcompact motor had up until that movie came and spread our thinking as far as the US aftermarket goes. Up until that time it was all about the V8. Wich got it's start aftermarket wise somewhat the same way. Not nessacerily a movie. But from a group of guys like ourselves who went out and spent all our man hours figuring out how to reach the "limits" of the platform. And well basicly kept doing so till either the manufacturer of some big company got in the act started research and developed alot of the parts and after market because they knew that's where the money was. I'm pretty sure if F&F was Z's instead of crappy honda's....there would have been a head put out already. Now remeber I'm not saying it takes a lame movie but just an opertunity to grab and run with...anyone feeling me on this ? ~BB~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbobluestreak Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 For you that don't know back in the late 70's OS Giken made a DOHC 24 Valve head for the L6 motor which is rare to find. So guys you might be in luck I've taken another look at the RB set ups and from what I see and this is a maybe, If I can get a oil pump off a 300zx to slide on our cranks then I can make a custom plate to block off the oil. Then useing RB timing belt parts convert the L6 to belt and bolt on a RB head such as the RB20 or RB25. Then modifying the timing cover to bolt to the block over all of this. Now to me the only thing stoping this from working would be the distributor, since they don't use them it's going to be a mestery to set up one or just set up a solid state ignition on the car if possible for a desent price. So I ask if anyone can help with finding me a oil pump that I can mess around with and see how it will work on the car. Also I'm looking for information on Solid state ignition as well as any one who has an RB20 or RB25 head that they are willing to part with. If this doesn't work out then I'm back to square one building a chain driven DOHC from scratch but I would perfer this route to cut down cost. Finally to take full advantage of the cams alone we will need the Crank damperes that Jeffp is getting produced for us. Becuase its not 8K but 7K when the cranks get weak and when our dampeners spilt. tbs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 Blackbob I think you need to help Turbobluestreak with his project =). I for one am gathering as much info as possible on the subject and will continue to bounce ideas around with Bluestreak in the hopes that we can solve this issue. The more of us that work on it, the faster it will get done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 The Sub-compact thing was BOOMING LONG before F&F. I don't know what country you've been in, but I've got SSC and Turbo & Hi Tech mags from the 90s with TONS of relatively fast imports... Bob, I'm interested in your background and what other cars you've built? Also How old are you??? Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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