V8 vs Inline four???

[Jonas240z]

Hello guys:

 

I just got a quick question? How come a Honda inline four from an S2000 is able to produce 250hp being that it's only a 2 liter engine and how come a '98 Camaro Z28 produce only 300hp if it's a 5.7 liter engine... that's a big difference in diplacement. I just started learning about cars and that's one of my big questions. I know doesn't really have much to do with the Z cars but the thing is that nobody has been able to answer my question...I'm just wondering. Thanks for the help!

[Tim240z]

Hint...don't look at HP, look at torque.

 

Tim

[JoeinCA]

Horsepower is an equation that is derived from an obscure relation to how far a horse can lift/pull 33,000 lbs.

quote from howstuffworks.com:

 

"What horsepower means is this: In Watt's judgement, one horse can do 33,000 foot-pounds of work every minute. So, imagine a horse raising coal out of a coal mine as shown above. A horse exerting 1 horsepower can raise 330 pounds of coal 100 feet in a minute, or 33 pounds of coal 1,000 feet in one minute, or 1,000 pounds 33 feet in one minute. You can make up whatever combination of feet and pounds you like. As long as the product is 33,000 foot-pounds in one minute, you have a horsepower. "

 

End quote.

 

Therefore, a smaller engine can create more HP per unit of displacement simply due to the fact that they can reach higher RPMs. They can do this because they generally have less rotating mass in the engine, and therefore less overall friction, parts can be lighter, and can be moved more easily...

 

Torque is where you get an actual direct equation for determining "power output"

 

here is a definition of the word torque from merriam webster online:

"Main Entry: 2torque

Function: noun

Etymology: Latin torquEre to twist

Date: circa 1884

1 : a force that produces or tends to produce rotation or torsion <an automobile engine delivers torque to the drive shaft>; also : a measure of the effectiveness of such a force that consists of the product of the force and the perpendicular distance from the line of action of the force to the axis of rotation

2 : a turning or twisting force"

 

i hope that clears up some of your confusion.

 

Joe

[johnc]

There's so much more to horsepower and torque production then displacement. You cannot look at just one aspect of an engine. Since you're just learning about cars, I suggest you go here and start with the basics: http://www.howstuffworks.com and go to the Auto section. For a specific answer to your question go to: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question381.htm

[Guest Damn Cracker]

here's another thing: look at the prices. squeezing that much hp out of a 2 iter motor takes alot of enineering, while 300 hp out of a bigger v8 i nothing, in fact chevy made a 265 ci (i think) v8 in 1955 tht made 265 hp, 1 hp per ci. thats even better than a crammo's 300 hp out of 350 ci

[Guest Dan0myte]

in fact chevy made a 265 ci (i think) v8 in 1955 tht made 265 hp, 1 hp per ci. thats even better than a crammo's 300 hp out of 350 ci

 

In 1955, they used gross power ratings though. You have to compare gross to gross or net to net to have a real comparison. That 265 gross power is actually around 220 net horsepower, which is equal in hp/ci to the camaro's 300 net horsepower.

 

But anyways, yeah, the Honda S2000 has 230hp, but 130lb/ft of torque. Torque is the forward thrust, horsepower is how fast it happens. Quick torque production and light weight are what make the S2000 fast. Put an S2000 up against a '67 Camaro and the S2000 may win. Put the S2000 up against a '67 Camaro, but going up a steep hill, and the Camaro will easily win.

 

As an example, serious duty turbo deisel engines for semi-trailers will have around 1000lb/ft of torque and 300hp. It allows them a ton of forward thrust, but you don't see them drag racing because horsepower is a function of the rate of torque production. The torque is produced too slowly for racing, but it never breaks a sweat moving a lot of weight.

[Moridin]

If you've ever seen a dyno graph, just look at the area under the hp and torque curves of different motors. The 5.7 may only make 300HP, but the area under the curve is much greater than that of the S2000 motor. This is especially true for the torque curves. The 4 banger can be considered to have one advantage over the bigger motor (not including efficiency and all that) is that it can run much higher, lengthening gears out. I guess that's important in road racing, but not much so on the street.

[Phantom]

If you look at the racing world you'll see that they've realized that HP is directly related to th eamount of air they can pump through a motor. The faster it turns the more HP it produces. The Honda S2000 makes its HP at nearly 9,000 RPM while the LS1 makes its at about 5,000 RPM. Run a direct ratio and the LS1 would be making about 540 HP at 9,000 RPM. The problem is the technolgy and cost to get somethnig that large moving that fast. It can be done but no one here would want to spend that kind of money. You have to look at the whole picture, torque also in the equation, to understand. One number does not tell the entire story.

[Jonas240z]

Thank you guys for clearifying my question. Now i understand a little bit more about torque and Hp relation. Thanks again.

[Guest Anonymous]

The relationship between hp and torque is expressed in the equation:

 

Horsepower=Tn/5252

 

Where T is maximum torque output and n is the RPM at which the maximum torque output is achieved. Ofcourse, this is mathematical and doesn't account for drivetrain and parasitic losses, so the number will be a bit higher than that achieved on a chassis dyno.

 

Spence

[Guest zfan]

Honda=no torque, sbc= tons of torque...torque=quick et's

 

Mike

[Moridin]

Honda=no torque' date=' sbc= tons of torque...torque=quick et's

 

Mike[/quote']

 

That's about right. Remember though, not all four cylinders are like the motorcycle engines Honda makes for its cars. Saab and VW make some pretty torquey fours with the help of a turbo charger and that isn't torque up on the top of the rpm band either.

[Guest Nic-Rebel450CA]

Um, how about the simplest answer possible...

 

Look at POTENTIAL power, not what it comes with from the factory. A V8 only putting out 250HP or so is running very mild, a lil 4-cyl putting out 200HP is approaching maximum output. (Assuming NA, that is)

 

If you built both engines the same way the engine with about 3 times the displacement would put out about 3 times the power.

[Guest Anonymous]

Three times the displacement does not mean 3 times the power. Even if they are built the same way. Take a look at the formula one engines of the "turbo" era they ranged from 4 cyl engines to 10 cyl engines and guess what? The 4 cyls were putting out over 1500+ HP. I'm sure they were half the weight as well.

[johnc]

How come a Honda inline four from an S2000 is able to produce 250hp being that it's only a 2 liter engine and how come a '98 Camaro Z28 produce only 300hp if it's a 5.7 liter engine...

 

We all know the real answer to this question: Honda has better engineers then General Motors. GM is even buying Honda V6 engines to put in future Saturns.

[Guest Your Car is Slow]

Honda has better engineers then General Motors. GM is even buying Honda V6 engines to put in future Saturns

 

Thats the most ridiculous thing ive ever heard...I hope it was meant as a joke.

 

If you built that 5.7liter motor to the same specs as the S2000 motor (9000RPM redline, higher compression, etc)...it would probably eclipse 8 or 900 horsepower.

 

However while that sort of power is appealing to most of us here on the board...they probably wouldnt sell too many of them...nor would they pass ever increasing emissions specifications.

[johnc]

No joke. Having spent some time under various Honda and GM vehicles I can tell you that the Hondas are designed and manufactured to a higher standard then GM products. It makes no sense to engage in conjecture about what a 5.7L GM V8 will do if they built it to the same level (standards?) as the Honda 2L because GM won't (and probably can't) do it.

 

The closest production engine GM had was the ZR1 Corvette engine that Lotus had to develop for GM. There is some great engineering talent in GM, but they don't compare with Honda.

 

BTW... there already hundreds of GM V8s twisting over 9,000 rpms every week. Look at Winston Cup, Busch, ARCA, etc. Those engines make 750 to 850 horsepower in their best state of tune which works out to 150 hp per liter (assuming 5.7L - I could be mistaken on this) on the high end and 131 hp per liter on the low end. Race prepped normally aspirated S2K 2.2L engines make 310 to 340 horsepower which works out to 155 hp per liter on the high end and 141 hp on the low end.

 

Now let's see what happens to this thread...

[Drax240z]

Well I'll bite, but future posters please keep in mind this is a technical discussion, not a flame war.

 

I totally agree with John. There is a lot of technology that goes towards making 120hp/L of naturally aspirated displacement, and making it last more than 100,000km at that. This can only be done with stringent control over material quality, manufacturing processes, and tolerances. Honda (and really, all sportbike engine manufacturers) have demonstrated that they are capable of making engines that can produce well over 150hp/L in naturally aspirated form.

 

It really isn't fair to compare this with a 350, or any other pushrod V8 of that type. They are a 50? year old design, with modifications. GM has gone another route with their engines, enabling thousands of parts to interchange. Imaging what they have saved in manufacturing costs over this time! This is pretty amazing when you think about it! A design so good at what it was designed for, that 50 years later it is still in widespread use. However, I think the gig is up, and for GM to stay competative (and indeed all the big 3 in the US) they will have to lean towards higher efficiency engines. And I'm talking about efficient design, reducing mechanical losses, etc., not just fuel economy.

 

Granted if you want to go fast in north america for a relatively small amount of money, the american V8 and its aftermarket are impossible to beat for powre to cost ratio.

[Guest Damn Cracker]

in regards to nascar motors and whatnot, i believe they are 5.0L, and they hae other hp limiting restrictions. but also, think of the conditions they run in. 8000 rpm for 2 hours straight? i doubt you could get a honda to do that making that much power.

[Drax240z]

Honda engines in F1 can pull 17,000rpm plus for 2 hours straight, in the 800hp range out of a 3.5L. (229hp/L)

 

The Honda F4i engine can pull 12,000+ rpm all day long, 110hp out of a 0.6L. (183hp/L)

 

Heck, even the Honda S2000 engine could pull 8000rpm for 2 hours without a hiccup I'd bet, 240hp out of a 2.0L. (120hp/L)

 

I can't believe I am sitting here defending Honda. Well I don't mind them, I just shun them because I don't want to conform with the masses.