zcarnut Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 It looks like the Mercedes engine has the same spacing between all the cylinders. Remember that the L6 has more spacing between cylinders 3 and 4 (to allow for the crankshaft thrust bearing) than the spacing between all the other cylinders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nic-Rebel450CA Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 The pick n pull near me has a number of Mercedes. I can try looking for a Mercedes 280CE. Does anyone know what year(s)? Has anyone confirmed the firing pattern on these? Is this the engine that Datsun got in trouble for copying Mercedes on to make the Z engine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToplessZ Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 I didnt know datsun got in trouble over a mercedes copy??? Id like to hear more info on all this. If you were to find one at a jy for like 50 bucks or something Id throw a little cash your way to help on the venture and some others may also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nic-Rebel450CA Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 I have read a few sources that Datsun copied a Mercedes engine measure for measure and ended up having to pay royalties or something like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest d3c0y z3d Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 Maybe this can help ... the picture isn't really clear but it is an OS-Giken twin-cam 24valve L28 head .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HS30-H Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 I have read a few sources that Datsun copied a Mercedes engine measure for measure and ended up having to pay royalties or something like that. Well, those sources were wrong. This urban myth keeps popping up like a rubber biscuit bouncing around in an oil tanker. Please somebody put on a catcher's mitt and get a hold of it................ The story has been put to bed here on HybridZ more than once, as far as I can remember. To put it in a nutshell, The Prince Motor Company licensed some Mercedes patents for their "G" series engines in the mid-Sixties. When Prince merged with Nissan these licensed patents were carried across to the "L" series engines. Neither Prince nor Nissan COPIED any Mercedes engine, and the patents and ideas they used were confined to elements of the cam gear train. That scan of the Japanese magazine article about the O.S.GIKEN twin cam head contains a BIG typo; it was called the "T.C. 24 B1" - not the "T.G. 24 B1". Alan T ( rumour scotching department ). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbobluestreak Posted October 4, 2003 Author Share Posted October 4, 2003 Yes that OS G head is what has inspired me to build this head I've searched for that head with no luck. Also they made a L4 head for the Datsun 510. tbs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest zline Posted October 5, 2003 Share Posted October 5, 2003 KA24DE valve train use all the stock KA24DE valve lengths retainers springs etc., that way we can use off the shelf KA24DE parts when needed. I'd even use stock KA24 cams, that motor uses a chain driven gear setup just like our L series does so there wouldnt be a problem with the gears. that way all you'd have to do is adjust the combusion chamber design for most efficent quench possible. basically I vote for use everything you can from a KA24DE in a head that bolts up to the L engine. We'd need to get custom camshafts ground however. JWT can do this kind of work so you might want to contact them. you'd also need to come up with a custom piston that has proper valve reliefs for using this head. wiseco can make the pistons you just need to supply a cad for them to go off of. call Russ at arao engineering, he was getting hemi vw heads cast when he was in highschool =) he should be able to help you out with that department. he also makes custom 32 valve v8 heads so coming up with a tooling path and whatnot would be easy for him to help ya with. I dont see how this is going to be affordable....to cover production and casting costs as well as valvetrain and custom camshafts it'd need to be at least 3900 for everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 one thing about that mercedes gasket, look at the area that the timing chain passes thru... looks a bit wider than the same opening on the L28's gasket to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruez Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 I've been watching the progress in these threads.... I agree, the billet method would be mighty expensive... Casting would be much cheaper...especially since its aluminum. I would think the best route to go with these parts is use as many stock parts as possible, parts that are readily accesible..... Like using a stock piston.. depending on the quench area, a flat top or dished piston would be nice to use, cheaper on the pockets.... and for those who wanted the absolute power from it.... they could alter their pistons to the specs they need. I think if it costs a pile to get it to work, not many are going to even try to go that route.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbobluestreak Posted October 10, 2003 Author Share Posted October 10, 2003 Guys I still think billet is the best way to go. Just because last time I looked into sand casting for the first run. A company would have to make a muilti layer head to get all of the internal featers for the molds. The price qoute I got from two companies was in the 12k-14k range for one head. Now if I was making like 10,000 heads that would be cost effective but this is a smaller production scale and doesn't make since to me unless someone on the boards is a experanced mold maker that can help. But for the cost of the aluminum I can have I have a guy that will help do the cnc machineing for me and heat treat it after he's done. tbs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest zline Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 heat treat it before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest xero Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 heat treat it before, and it'll take twice as long to machine. rough it, heat treat it, and then do finish dimensions would be the way to go, I think...that is if heat treating changes the size of things, 'cause it's expanding then contracting, eitherway, it'd be way to hard to machine if it was already heat treated, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
240Z_Master Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 Timing Chain I had a 300SD Turbo Diesel that was an inline 5. The Chain may work off of that motor. I'm not sure. I have a chain laying around here somewhere and i'll compare it to the timing chain i bought for my L28. I'll keep you folks updated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest zline Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 heat treat it before' date=' and it'll take twice as long to machine. rough it, heat treat it, and then do finish dimensions would be the way to go, I think...that is if heat treating changes the size of things, 'cause it's expanding then contracting, eitherway, it'd be way to hard to machine if it was already heat treated,[/quote'] It'd also be perfectly true. The best crankshafts are pretreated then machined, this is why Moldex and the now NLA L28 Nissan Motorsport crankshaft were perfectly round. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nic-Rebel450CA Posted October 14, 2003 Share Posted October 14, 2003 *tinker tinker tinker* This is a pic with a drawing of a 280Z headgasket and a Mercedes 280CE head gasket. I took actual pictures of each and converted them to a single color for an overlay. Unfortunately, the pictures were pictures that I found online so I didnt have very clear pictures to start with. As you can see, the cylinders all appear to line up, a bunch of the holes are very close, and some even line right up. I will be heading out to pick n pull soon, if I can find a 280CE out there I know for certain that there are a bunch of headless Z engines in the same lot, if I can tear it down I will take some pics of the gasket and head vs short block of the Z and report back. Keep your fingers crossed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
240Z_Master Posted October 14, 2003 Share Posted October 14, 2003 I believe that is a Mercedes Gasket, not a Mercury. Just for reference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nic-Rebel450CA Posted October 14, 2003 Share Posted October 14, 2003 I believe that is a Mercedes Gasket, not a Mercury. Just for reference. D'oh, yes, I am such a dope. Must sleeeep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David K Posted October 14, 2003 Share Posted October 14, 2003 Turbobluestreak, kudos to you sticking with this project. I do have some comments and i dont want you to take them the wrong way. I think you are wasting your time designing a head that would yeild minimal gains at the most. We can make a basic head flow enough with machining. If you wanna make your project worthwhile, you should design your head using Chevy parts so we can all walk in ANY parts store in the US and pick up the parts we need right away. Just my thoughts, flame away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleeperZ Posted October 14, 2003 Share Posted October 14, 2003 Timing Chain I had a 300SD Turbo Diesel that was an inline 5. The Chain may work off of that motor. I'm not sure. I have a chain laying around here somewhere and i'll compare it to the timing chain i bought for my L28. I'll keep you folks updated. The diesel chain is a lot longer to loop over for the injection pump. Of course you have two camsprockets now, so maybe it'll be long enough. Why not try to use as much off the gasser Mercedes 280E as possible, including it's timing chain and guides? Either way you will have to make a sprocket that fits the L28 crank or sprockets that'l fit the cams you want to use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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