NA 3.1L=>head & camshaft questions. No shortcuts, max

[t-tom]

I'm so excited to see this thread up and running again! 

[steve260z]

Yep....

 

How's the motor coming?

[clarkspeed]

The old Nissan Motorsport set up pulled oil from side of the pan straight into pump bypassing the block feed. I like this idea but have been unable to source the pump plate to convert. But I've had no problems with my motorsport oil pan and accusump combo with fresh turbo pump.

You can lighten the rockers yourself. I trimmed and polished like the "how to modify" book.

I won't comment too much on the tensoiner other than I have yet to encounter a problem where such an engineered solution is required for road race applications.

[zredbaron]

Thanks for the input.

 

Full report on the motor: The pump failed to deliver oil, but the oil did its job and saved the motor (Royal Purple plus Lucas synthetic stabilizer). The #1 cam tower is the point that seized, and the cam and everything made of ubobtanium are ok! In the end I'll be replacing the crank bearings, a set of valves that were dinged, and of course a set of cam towers.

 

An unfortunate rookie mistake as far as I can tell, but I'm grateful the damage was minimal. 

 

I ordered the twin idler gear upgrade and will order the bearings next week.

[JMortensen]

FWIW I had a friend who also did his rockers like the How to Modify book. Didn't look hard at all and he balanced them too. He was turning 8K on his L4, to me it made more sense for higher rpms.

[Tony D]

It's not difficult to lighten them as mentioned. Plus you can decide where you want to maximise that loss. I lightened per the How To Book back in the 80's when rocker arms were $6 new... Now I understand the trepidation, but it's a longevity mod more than anything else. Un lightened rockers have gone over 9,700 rpms for minutes at a time in our Bonneville engine. But the geometry is right, stem height is right, lash pads are right, everything is straight and at right angles...

Start cutting corners in the Valvetrain reciprocating area, it will come back to bite you!

[Josh280z]

My trepidation with matching and lightening my rocker arms would be access to a more accurate scale than I have.

[steve260z]

http://www.harborfreight.com/digital-scale-95364.html

[Josh280z]

I have a scale that does the same thing. I would like something that measure at least to the tenths of the gram.

Edited November 24, 2013 by Josh280z

[ctc]

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_SPM9798460813P?ci_src=184425893&ci_sku=SPM9798460813&sid=IDx20130125xMPHOMx012

 

They are around.

 

For $40, you can get on that measres .01 to 500 grams at .01 accuracy.

[ryant67]

Any updates?  Always been a fan of what you have been doing with this car, hopefully you have it up and running again now.  

[zredbaron]

Hello friends...

 

Sorry about the delay! Holy crap life has been a whirlwind! The short version: I gave up a very profitable career for love... love didn't work out but was very, very worth it and I highly recommend the ride!

 

I honestly intended to provide a detailed update, but I... I'm all sappy!? What the hell!?

 

Sometimes you can't help but stop and smell the roses. Family is often there to remind us of life's certainties... and well... so too has HLS30-11518 has been there since about 30 days prior to my departure from the nest at age 18.

 

I'm surprised to confess how grateful I am for the S30 and its American following. In the present moment, it seems improper to do anything other than express gratitude for a beautiful, perfect car that patiently has waited for me to finish honoring my promise to her.

 

Cheers, 11518. Thanks for waiting for me these 16 years. Actually, no-- thanks for knowing I'll always be back.

 

I love you forever, you beautiful bitch.... 

 

Love,

Mark

 

 

(Okay, short update: my rebuilt block is ready, but rests on the ground alongside my awaiting-changes chassis in Arkansas. More details soon.)

 

[jhm]

Mark!  Good to hear you're still alive, buddy....how's life treating you?  TSCC is back at ACU-4 (finally), and still going strong.  Let's see some updates and pictures soon.

r/John

[zredbaron]

Well now, it's waaayyyy past time to put my motor back in my Z and push my u-joints to the limit!

 

As best I can discern, the issue with the motor was more or less owner ignorance. I didn't know anything about storing a race motor for six months, and incorrectly assumed I could just fire it up and drive off. It fired up and drove angrily... for about 500 ft before I turned around only for it to stall / seize once out of 1st gear and coasting to park and investigate. Oops.

 

The symptoms: oil pressure reading zero. That was the only clue I had, and it sounded like a healthy and happy racecar for about 45 seconds. I thought it was the gauge / wiring, but no, it was telling the truth. Upon disassembly, the oil pump was noted as failed/seized. The seizure points were 2 of the cam towers, which thankfully sacrificed themselves on behalf of my unobtanium sunbelt cam. One intake and one exhaust valve also paid the price with slight deformation against the valve-relieved pistons. I also replaced the main crank bearings. [My engine builder noted that the coated bearings really held up better than he would have thought given the engine build.] (Rebello-sourced coated crank bearings.)

 

While I was at it (a damn-stupid $/hp ratio):

• Rocker arms. I ended up with machined rocker arms from ZCCJDM, which offer about a 25% weight reduction with increased strength and less variance. The images on the site are, as best I could tell, not representative of his final design. I approved nonetheless. I'll pop the cam cover off and snap some pics whenever I unwrap my motor from its cellophane cocoon.
                
• Kameari Cam Tensioner. I also ordered this through ZCCJDM. Initially, I ordered it through MSA, but they claimed the red anodized version was the only version available, after a 6 week wait. Frustrated and determined to bead-blast the red off of it, I ordered it. Then, while emailing Brian at ZCCJDM (what an awful business name!), he claimed he could order the billet alluminum version and seemed to offer a shorter delivery time (4 weeks). Tired of my money not being green, I ordered the billet one too and it arrived first. I still have the red, PM me if you want to buy it under retail price. JDCCM is my recommendation for ordering Kameari products via an American entity.
               
• EDIT -- I forgot to mention that I bought the Kameari timing chain, too. They claim the improved chain is 4x as resistant to wear, resistant to stretching and lower friction. Seemed an obvious pairing to the twin idler pulley investment.    
             
• Kameari oil pump. Same same! This is the culprit, after all... and until I find a graceful (in my eyes/mind) dry sump bolt-on solution, I'll go with a robust OEM replacement.
                   

 

So, this was all rebuilt by spring '14. I literally drove my block from OH to VA to rebuild it. I didn't trust the locals (way too V8 happy in a rural way) [no judgment! I love rural communities], I trusted my last builder that much, and I like to control my experiments as a scientist (less variables). After another long road trip to also see family/friends, I returned to OH just in time to voluntarily lose/give up my career and move yet again. At least the road trips utilized a very nice job perk with a company car before I gave it up.

 

My car, block and vision are all now in the Ozark mountains at my Dad's place. I'm still recovering personally, but it's time for my Z therapy to begin... 

Edited November 15, 2014 by zredbaron

[inline6]

Hi Mark, 

 

I've enjoyed reading your posts here in the forums.  It seems you were kind of taking time off from Z cars when I was ramping up my efforts to build a new motor.  I've had some issues which have delayed me a bit, but I wanted to pass along some info to you in case you need it at some point.  

 

Your cam is not unobtanium.  Kinetic/Sunbelt is not doing Datsun as far as I can tell, and Jim is no longer there... yes... true.  As you commented in a post a while back, Integral Cams was making the cams for Sunbelt.  The owner of Integral Cams shut down his business, but I was lucky enough to track down down the company that bought his "masters" including the Z-Car L-Series E30 Race Cam #2.  I bought one originally from Jim, but that one got trashed and I have bought one from this company now also.  If you need one in the future, they are Megacycle Cams in CA.  

 

By the way, I paid $800 for the first cam from Jim.  And close to that for the one from Megacycle... so you got a good deal!  That or I got crappy deals.

 

Separately, I wonder if you can help me out.  The valve springs that Jim sent me to use with the cam...  they are a problem.  I was wondering if you could dig up the paperwork you got and find a part number for the valve spring set?  I am showing that I got a set with the number 1W901.  

 

Problem with them is the specs I was provided are as follows:

 

Integral specs:

Installed at 1.680" with 54 lbf.

Open height = 1.130" or .550" lift with 193 lbf

 

But when installed at the spec height, they coil bind at just under the .550 lift.  The ones I got will coil bind at 1.132".  So, the springs they shipped me will not accommodate .550" lift!  

 

Now, my engine builder actually set the springs up at 1.710" because he saw what was going on, and at 1.710" installed height, the spring loads on the seat and at max lift are close to the desired specs listed above (actuals at 1.710 are 56 lbs. and 190 lbs. - installed and open, respectively).  But, he flagged that as a problem... saying I really should have at least 40 to 50 thou before coil bind.  

 

And since I am wiping lobes within minutes of start up... repeatedly, this known issue (only .028" room until coil bind) is resurfacing as a potential cause.  

 

Any info you can provide about the springs (part number, specs) you got would be helpful.  Thanks.

 

Garrett 

Edited November 14, 2014 by inline6

[zredbaron]

Hi Garrett,

 

Thanks for sharing your homework regarding the Sunbelt Race Cam #2, glad to hear you were able to track one down, even if at a "masters" price!

 

(You are talking about the outer-springs-only style of springs, correct? Your part number infers this, of course.)

 

According to my spec / install sheet:

• Set Hot cam lash at .010"
• Set up lash pad thickness so that gross valve lift occurs with zero lash.
• For 7700 max. RPM: Use 1W901 outer spring only on both intake and exhaust.
• Intake
       Installed at 1.680" with 54 lbf.
       Open height = 1.130" or .550" lift with 193 lbf.
• Exhaust
       Installed at 1.680" with 54 lbf.
       Open height = 1.130" or .550" lift with 193 lbf.
• **Note: The exhaust valve spring installed height was 1.650" on race cam #1 and
  it is now 1.680" on race cam #2. It needs to be installed at 1.680" so that there is
  .035" clearance between full lift and coil bind.

 

It *appears* you purchased the "correct" springs as per the part code. When I had Integral grind my cam, they couldn't source the springs and referred me to Jim Wolf Technology at (619) 442-0680. After some digging, they called me back claiming to have what I needed.

 

My receipt (dated 12/13/10) says:

• Item number:  AVG3E-L6SPR
• Spring/shim set VG30E & L28
• Outer spr. only, I/H 1.600"
• 68lb. on seat .490" lift max.

I don't speak valve geometry, so I called my engine builder and he said the numbers might not reflect valve lash. He confirmed the springs didn't bind and had about .050" to spare. So he says from memory (he rebuilt it with same springs about 9 months ago). The engine ran quite well before it seized due to improper storage. (Still sighing out loud three years later!)

 

Good luck, and let us know what you find!

Edited November 15, 2014 by zredbaron

[zredbaron]

As for an update with my project, I had some logistical snags on property with a tractor and some other boring details. About a week ago I was able to *very carefully* reverse the car out of my trailer using furniture dollies, a rope and intermittent use of a lightweight jack. My stock front control arms weren't able to bolt into the crossmember after I strengthened and relocated the pivot points. Whoops. The wheels would individually toe in or out every six inches or so, at random. Slow, but safe. Success!

 

At present, I have the stock control arms, TC rods and outer tie rods removed and my new Techno Toy Tuning low-friction parts are awaiting installation. After that, I may or may not elect to reinforce the ARB mount points since one of the holes seems weakened and I'm running the DP Racing low-friction bar without poly. I'd much rather have any welding performed before I put the block back in the car.

 

So, the engine project is slowly-but-surely getting closer... 

Edited November 14, 2014 by zredbaron

[t-tom]

Well it sucks that you got your heart broke, but I doubt it will be the last time I tell my son all the time love is like fishing. You keep throwing em back until you land a keeper!  Great to see updates about your Z  

[inline6]

Interesting... and wow, more info than I expected you to be able to retrieve.  Couple of things to share:

 

Yes, my paperwork said pretty much everything you have in the top half of your post including "use 1W901 one outer spring only".  I am, in fact, running one spring only.   However, this part of what you shared was not in my documentation:

 

**Note: The exhaust valve spring installed height was 1.650" on race cam #1 and it is now 1.680" on race cam #2. It needs to be installed at 1.680" so that there is .035" clearance between full lift and coil bind.

 

Well...

 

Basically, the 1.680" dimension is the distance from the head surface (where the bottom of the valve spring sits) to the underside of the spring retainer surface.  Typically, when you install a valve in the head, put a spring retainer on with the little keepers to hold it in place, and then measure the distance from the valve spring seat to the underside of the retainer, you will see a dimension of greater than the 1.680" - say something around 1.730", for example.  To get the 1.680" specified, you place suitable thickness shims on the spring seat.  You do this so that when you install the spring, the distance from the bottom of the spring to the top of the spring with the valve closed is 1.680" inches.  

 

And at that height, the pressure the valve exerts on the valve seat is supposed to be 54 lbf.  And again, per the specs, when the cam lobe is in the position of max valve lift off of the seat, the "open pressure", or the amount of force the spring is "pushing back" is 193 lbf.  

 

And here is the issue in a nutshell...  If I were to set up my springs (those Sunbelt sent me) at the previously mentioned 1.680" installed height, then with my (and your) cam which has .550" lift, as the cam rotates around, and it actuates the rocker, and it compresses the valve spring assembly by .550", then at that max lift (which is the same as max spring compression), the spring compresses from 1.680"... minus the .550"... which results in a fully compressed height of 1.130".  The big problem here is that by my engine builder's physical measurement, my springs stack solid at 1.132".  They cannot compress any further than that - they cannot compress to 1.130".  

 

So... to buy a small amount of room, he installed my springs at 1.710" installed height.  At that distance... minus the .550", I get 1.160", or .028" before stacking solid.  My engine builder also measured 56 lbf at that installed height and 190 lbf at .550" lift (which is pretty close to the specs Integral Cams provided).

 

This part of your response was also very interesting:

 

When I had Integral grind my cam, they couldn't source the springs and referred me to Jim Wolf Technology at (619) 442-0680. After some digging, they called me back claiming to have what I needed.

 

My receipt (dated 12/13/10) says: 

 

• Item number:  AVG3E-L6SPR
• Spring/shim set VG30E & L28
• Outer spr. only, I/H 1.600"
• 68lb. on seat .490" lift max.

Notice that .490" lift max number?  That is .060" less than our cam has.  This max lift number is usually a number which is related to the point where the springs stack solid.  As a general rule, you need to stay about 050" to .060" away from the stack solid dimension.  So, one could (but probably shouldn't) assume that this spring may stack solid (or coil bind, whichever you prefer!) at 1.600" minus .490" minus "spare" room of say... .050" thou.  That results in an assumed coil bind at 1.050", for example.  If this spring truly stacks solid at something like 1.050" instead of 1.132" like mine, then this info could be greatly helpful to me.   

 

Because...

 

In theory, running the AVG3E-L6SPR at 1.680" installed height will buy another .080" thousandths of clearance before stacking solid - (i.e. instead of I/H 1.600", the new installed height is that dimension plus .080").  Then, putting in the .550" cam, we get 1.680" minus .550" minus .050".... which results in a distance of 1.080".  And this is still 30 thou away from where the "coils bind"!  

 

We hope!

 

By the way, running a taller installed height than that specified (i.e. the 1.680" instead of 1.600") will also lower the amount of lbf force... to something less than the specified 68 lb.  After all, when you relax a compressed spring a bit, the amount of force it exerts lessens...  Perhaps, it might even be something like the 54 lbf that Integral specified.

 

Again, we hope... 

 

So, long story short, based on the info you have provided, the AVG3E-L6SPR spring could be different than those that Kinetic sent me.  I sure hope so at this point, as those that I have don't have enough room to spare before "bottoming out".  

 

Thanks very much for the info!

Edited November 15, 2014 by inline6

[zredbaron]

Hey, alright! That's great news! It isn't very often that I have the information another HybridZ member is looking for, so I definitely enjoy the moments where there's a chance I can contribute back to the community.
 

Thanks for the valve-geometry lesson. Good trade!

 

 

Unrelated... I forgot to mention in post #214 that I also bought the Kameari heavy duty timing chain. They claim the improved chain is 4x as resistant to wear, resistant to stretching and lower friction. Seemed an obvious pairing to the twin idler pulley investment.


And t-tom, thanks for the sentiments. As fate would have it, surrendering to concepts like "unconditional love" and "if you love someone you'll let them go" made a full circle. My fiance came back with an enlightened perspective on things, so all is well now. It doesn't always work out that way, but I'm sure glad it did!

Edited November 15, 2014 by zredbaron