spork Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 hey, I was looking at your pics...can you tell us more about that flapper in your manifold spacer that helps with spoolup. Is that a custom piece or is it available somewhere? If so where and how does it work? More velocity promotes faster spoolup? does it operate on some sort of boost controlled solenoid that opens it up after a certain psi? It looks very interesting... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
violacleff Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 Intake was by thagard back in the day if I remember correctly. He did a run of them a while back. BTW, If I remember the story correctly, didn't james go twin turbo because he couldn't get enough power out of the T64? And yet your'e making 500rwhp on yours. James made 450 at 26 psi am I correct? Perhaps it was more of a spoolup/lag issue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ON3GO Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 okay okay.. my eyes hurt. i keep getting lost in your engine bay.. its like omg... anyways.. do you have 2 fuel rails? maybe its just so bling bling in there that im seeing double. what is that orange tubing? hose covers??? i need soo much info on that engine lol. sooooooo awesome. mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimZ Posted November 11, 2005 Author Share Posted November 11, 2005 okay okay..my eyes hurt. i keep getting lost in your engine bay.. its like omg... anyways.. do you have 2 fuel rails? maybe its just so bling bling in there that im seeing double. what is that orange tubing? hose covers??? i need soo much info on that engine lol. sooooooo awesome. mike Thanks' date=' guys. So many questions... I know you didn't mean it that way, but re: bling bling... Yes it's pretty, but everything in there does have a purpose Keeping it clean and shiny has the added advantage of being easy to work on. The orange tubing is firesleeve - it has two purposes - first is to shield hoses from high heat sources, like the turbo. Stuff that goes near the turbo or exhaust gets firesleeve. Second, stainless braided hose can and will wear away pretty much any surface that it comes in contact with. The firesleeve is also being used to keep the hoses from abrading things - actually kind of anti-bling, as many people would rather leave the shiny silver showing. The is only one fuel rail. The piece that is mounted to the valve cover is made from fuel rail stock, but it is being used as a manifold pressure reference for critical items such as the MAP sensor, fuel rail and boost controller. Everything else that needs vacuum is pulled from a second summing network that was integrated into the plenum - the aluminum hard lines feed this second manifold, and it supplies the brake booster and other vacuum accessories. The manifold is a Mikuni piece that was intended for their triple setup. Many of you will note that the Cannon manifold (or similar) is usually considered more desireable, due to its straighter runners. I chose the Mikuni piece simply because it gets the TBs up higher, leaving more clearance for the turbo. BTW, the head flow numbers I quoted before were taken with the manifold, TBs and velocity stacks in place, so I don't think it's hurting me too much. The TBs are TWMs, and the plenum was my own design - I cut all of the pieces to fit, bent the outer housing on a sheet metal brake, and had an accomplished welder weld the seams together for me. The Elgin cam was ground on a new billet as far as I know. I did supply John at Elgin with a great deal of info, down to head flow numbers at 0.100" increments. Don't know if that helped get me more attention or not. Yes - I'm running a BHJ damper. Ignition timing was approx. 26deg from the onset of boost to 5000rpm. Then it ramps to 29deg at 7000rpm. Fuel pump is a single Bosch-style pump that I got from Kinsler - flow tested to provide 300lb/hr at 70psi. I run a Kenne Bell Boost-a-Pump to increase the supply voltage (and thus flow capacity) when on boost. The intercooler itself is routed normally for that type of intercooler - both input and output pipes go through the rad support on the driver's side. The tricky part is the cold air intake. I use a radiator that is 3" narrower than the stock piece, and pull my intake air from the resulting gap. You should be able to see the ducting for this in the pics I posted before - its the thing with the 6" orange tubing in the middle of it. The air filter is integrated inside the tubing. The spoolie jobbie was an experiment that James helped me out with - it looked promising with the Isky cam, but the more aggressive Elgin cam didn't like the added backpressure at all, so I am not currently using it. Maybe if I had a [b']much[/b] larger AR... As far as James's numbers go, remember that at the time his dyno runs were done we were pretty close on power (I was at 467rwhp, but had the added efficiency of the manual trans). He has since moved on to a new car with an RB. Also, I should let James speak to this, but I'm pretty sure he went to twins because he likes to be different and likes a challenge. He never ran a T64 as far as I know. Well - hopefully that answered some of your questions - let me know if I left anything out... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ON3GO Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 awesome! i didnt mean bling bling like that, u no that .. its just one amazing looking engine! sorry for another question its just that im trying to do right now what you have DONE.. so this has my mind on fire!!! can you take or have a pic of the intake manifold.. but from the backside, where the intake ports go into the manifold itself.. im trying to see how you sealed up the runners to the body of the manifold. I was talking to Vince (Vintage Tech Z) about a manifold design for my RB motor and i wanted to do something just like yours in either metal or dry carbon fiber but i didnt know what would be the best way to seal the body of the manifold to the ITB/Runners. where can i get some of that firesleeve? deff need some of that stuff as my fuel lines from my fuel rail hit some parts of the body/other engine parts. also that extra manifold body out of the fuel rail stock is pretty trick.. makes for a much cleaner manifold! mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cremmenga Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 Sorry if I sounded too cocky - I'm just pretty pumped by the results. :biggrin: :biggrin: When you have it that good you can be cockY!!!!!! frankly I would be upset if you weren't!!LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean 83ZXT Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 where can i get some of that firesleeve? deff need some of that stuff as my fuel lines from my fuel rail hit some parts of the body/other engine parts. http://www.amstreetrod.com/730006ERL.php4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimO Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 Hey what TimZ isn't telling everyone is that his T64 ran out of air at 6,000 rpm. His psi dropped to 20 and stayed there til the end of the runs....in other words there is quite a bit MORE hp potential left in that beast..... Way to go Tim....King of the hill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spork Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 Well, obviously its not my car, but the T64 shouldn't have run out of air. It can put out 65 lbs. per minute which still gives him some room. It sounds like there may be something going on elsewhere as that compressor isn't maxed out at 20-23psi. Whats being used to control boost? I saw he said he was using the 60mm hks wastegate, but is it just using the springs in the wastegate, or is it using a seperate controller? manual or electronic? I guess anything can happen, but that turbo should be able to put out more. Lastly, where is boost pressure being measured at? manifold, compressor housing, IC? Anyways, not trying to get into any kind of arguement, but more curious as to why the turbo seems to be the issue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s/cL3.0 Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 Dyno results: Nuttier than squirrel **** Good stuff I like the over all setup, Looks alot better than mine right now.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clifton Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 Well' date=' obviously its not my car, but the T64 shouldn't have run out of air. It can put out 65 lbs. per minute which still gives him some room. It sounds like there may be something going on elsewhere as that compressor isn't maxed out at 20-23psi. Whats being used to control boost? I saw he said he was using the 60mm hks wastegate, but is it just using the springs in the wastegate, or is it using a seperate controller? manual or electronic? I guess anything can happen, but that turbo should be able to put out more. Lastly, where is boost pressure being measured at? manifold, compressor housing, IC? Anyways, not trying to get into any kind of arguement, but more curious as to why the turbo seems to be the issue?[/quote'] Ditto,. Sounds like the WG spring was too soft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimZ Posted November 13, 2005 Author Share Posted November 13, 2005 Well' date=' obviously its not my car, but the T64 shouldn't have run out of air. It can put out 65 lbs. per minute which still gives him some room. It sounds like there may be something going on elsewhere as that compressor isn't maxed out at 20-23psi. Whats being used to control boost? I saw he said he was using the 60mm hks wastegate, but is it just using the springs in the wastegate, or is it using a seperate controller? manual or electronic? I guess anything can happen, but that turbo should be able to put out more. Lastly, where is boost pressure being measured at? manifold, compressor housing, IC? Anyways, not trying to get into any kind of arguement, but more curious as to why the turbo seems to be the issue?[/quote'] The MAP measurement is from a manifold summed from each intake port, taken from each manifold runner. Also, the boost is controlled by an HKS EVC-IV - I don't think there is any problem with the wastegate spring. Actually I took a look at a couple of datalogs from the dyno runs, and noted the following: At the point where boost pressure starts to fall, the injectors are at ~70% duty cycle, and the AFR (from a wideband sensor) is ~11.5. At redline, the injectors are at ~89% and the AFR is still at ~11.5. From this you can infer that when the boost started to drop off, the six 72lb/hr injectors were flowing (.7 x 72 x 6) = 302.4 lb/hr, or just over 5lb/min. Given the AFR was 11.5, there must have been in the neighborhood of (11.5 x 5)= 58 lb/min of airflow. Using the same math yields an airflow figure of around 73.7 lb/min. near redline. I haven't checked to make sure that my fuel flow wasn't dropping off at the redline, so the airflow at redline might be a bit less, but I don't think it's unreasonable to think that the turbo was pushed to or very near the limit. One other interesting thing to note - at the horsepower peak, the duty cycle was ~80%, or 345.6 lb/min of fuel. Assuming a reasonably conservative drivetrain friction loss of 15% would yield 598hp at the flywheel. So the BSFC of this engine should be about 345.6/598 = .58 ..Which is about what you'd expect from a 7.5cr engine. Kinda cool how it all works out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clifton Posted November 13, 2005 Share Posted November 13, 2005 Also' date=' the boost is controlled by an HKS EVC-IV - I don't think there is any problem with the wastegate spring. [/quote'] A too soft spring cannot hold boost as revs go up if the boost is high regardless of the controller used. I've seen T64 dynos over 600 rwhp on a 2jz. I wouldn't think an L28 could max it out if a 3.0 4 valve motor at 27 psi didn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimZ Posted November 13, 2005 Author Share Posted November 13, 2005 It's a moot point anyway - if I see the same characteristic with the GT42R, then I'll take a look at the spring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehelix112 Posted November 13, 2005 Share Posted November 13, 2005 A too soft spring cannot hold boost as revs go up if the boost is high regardless of the controller used. I've seen T64 dynos over 600 rwhp on a 2jz. I wouldn't think an L28 could max it out if a 3.0 4 valve motor at 27 psi didn't. I wouldn't really agree with that. A proper controller will feed the boost pressure in to the top of the diaphram on the wastegate adding the spring pressure to the boost pressure force holding it shut. So say you have a spring that will open when there is a 5psi difference across the diaphram. If you run 15psi boost, you then require 15psi more backpressure in the exhaust to force it open. TimZ, I reckon you won't know that car going from a shitter T-series to a nice new BB. *ducks from the flames*. The GT42R compressor is absolutely bloody fantastic, soo tractible. The only complaints are the size of the housings. Have you seen http://members.shaw.ca/kfgroup/Turbo_&_Upgrades.htm ? Are you going the GT4294R or GT4202R? An upgrade you might want to look at if surge becomes an issue is the HKS T51R-SPL front cover. The holes around the outside of the comrpessor inlet are designed to counter surge. Look forward to seeing some pics/vids. Dave Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proxlamus© Posted December 25, 2005 Share Posted December 25, 2005 simply amazing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Revelation Posted December 25, 2005 Share Posted December 25, 2005 sorry i know you are having a lot of questions thrown at you all at once, but what kind of intercooler are you running? i like the car a lot, i particularly like how ive never heard or seen anything about it, seriously you just came out of left field, but i really like it!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RB26powered74zcar Posted December 25, 2005 Share Posted December 25, 2005 sorry i know you are having a lot of questions thrown at you all at once' date=' but what kind of intercooler are you running? i like the car a lot, i particularly like how ive never heard or seen anything about it, seriously you just came out of left field, but i really like it!!! [/quote'] If I remember right, its a Spearco, right Tim? haha, TimZ came out of left field....? He's been around here forever. You came along when? Seriously though, TimZ is one of the monsters of rock we have on this site. I have received a heep of help from TimZ. He's the man.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dj paul Posted December 25, 2005 Share Posted December 25, 2005 that motor almost gives you a boner just lookin at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ww Posted December 25, 2005 Share Posted December 25, 2005 TimZ, that's awesome man. Almost makes me want to toss my 'retro' nostalgic setup for a set of ITB's... Fantastic job dude. You gonna be at MSA next year? Hopefully, mine will be done by then and I'll see you there. We can trade notes. Ok, actually, you have a lot more fabrication knowledge than I do, so I hope you don't mind if I just attach a brain sucker to your head?! Anyway, truly magnificant job dude. P.S. J, your RB26TT is pretty damn sweet too. Cheers, WW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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