lbhsbZ Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 I don't know about you guys, but I've had my share of bad luck with them. I thought maybe we could start a thread and stick it in the FAQ section, organized by region, of shops that do good work that we have experience with. I don't claim to be a machinist by any means, but I do understand the procedures involved, and how critical it is to adhere to those procedures so that parts get machined correctly. I've recently went through 2 local shops one of which didn't measure properly (or at all) when doing a valve job, and another one that I switched to after that, who up until now has had my business....until I watched them machining a block for me, with no torque plate, no main caps torqued in place, on a beat up old machine that IMO was well past its prime. I walked out and told them to keep it, and the owner doesn't understand why. So I started looking around and stumbled on to Speed-o-motive in West Covina CA. After reading all the technical stuff on the website and spending about 20 minutes on the phone with them, I was fairly impressed. They asked me to come out and take a tour of the shop and watch some of the processes, so I did that today. WOW! Everything in the shop was spotless clean, at least 6 CNC machines all working away. The operators took the time to explain to me what each one of them were working on, how they set it up and why, and exactly what the machine is doing. Then there was a guy with a roll of tape and an X-acto knife doing a better job masking off a block for paint than most body shops do on bodywork. I spent about an hour in the shop, just observing. The attention to detail that I saw was simply amazing...so I dropped my 3rd core off (the other shops ate the other 2 cores), went over the specs I wanted, and we drew up the estimate. All this accuracy and attention to detail doesn't come cheap. To bake and shot blast the block, magnaflux, measure it up, blueprint it (align bore, cylinder bore, deck, remeasure), install cam bearings, ran me just shy of $900. I thought it was worth it after seeing what $300 got me at the other places. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savageskaterkid Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 I understand exactly what you saying, I recently dropped off my L28 block, head, and crank and went over what I wanted. They showed me EVERYTHING in the shop, and went into detail what each process includes and was quoted a price, I recently talked to them, and they said I need a new intake valve and the rest were up to par, and told me it was probably a good idea to get the angle job. I said go ahead, didn't even ask a price, I really don't care what it costs, its about quality-not the quantity. I'd rather it cost X amount more the first time, then to have to re-do it and pay X times 5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 280ZForce Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 I have all my engine stuff over at a place call JMS Race Engines (johnc recommended them to me) and they have been around for many years. They are known for building engines for SCCA, IMSA, NHRA, NASCAR, etc. They know Z cars very well as they have built race engines for Zs for 30+ years and used to seriously race them in SCCA in the 70s and 80s. They build engines and are very skilled and experienced with pretty much any engine you bring to them. They do complete research and development, have a full complete machine shop, flow bench, and engine dyno cell. Ask for Mike (tell him Justin sent ya) JMS Race Engines 5450 N. Peck Road El Monte, CA 91732 (626) 579-4567 I drive 40-45 miles 1 way just to take them my stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lesd Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 Thanks for the L.A. engine shop tips, guys! Does JMS do imports only? I need a domestic motor place. -Les Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 280ZForce Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 Thanks for the L.A. engine shop tips, guys!Does JMS do imports only? I need a domestic motor place. -Les They do everything... import, domestic, etc. They have a crap load of domestic parts. I think thats the main work they get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
defrag010 Posted March 18, 2007 Share Posted March 18, 2007 I wouldn't Ever base a machine shop on how pretty it is inside, how good you paint blocks, how talkative the machinists are, or how many CNC machines you have. Machines and neat shops don't mean anything without good operators. Just because a machine looks old, doesn't mean it won't work any better than a new machine. Most machines you buy for automotive machine work will last you 50+ years if you maintain them. Also, most machine shops won't use a torque plate or do anything special if you don't tell them what you want to do. I don't see how you could be mad at that. There are many methods and processes to honing, and there isn't one "correct" textbook way.... each person and shop will do things differently. Some shops might have great results while not using a torque plate so they don't use them, while others say you need them and hone everything with one. You could say that since the shop you used didn't seal off your block and put 210 degree water in and hone it at temp, that they didn't do it the "right" way... not trying to argue, just saying that your rant leaves alot open.... and this is from the point of view from a machinist - who deals with a bunch of customers and rants about what people think we should do Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentNight1647 Posted March 18, 2007 Share Posted March 18, 2007 I'm with defrag on this just because a machine shop deviates from what you consider to be procedures you can't get all upset about it. Their are a 1000 different ways to do the machine work on a motor and it will still run. I see no reason to buy new machines if the old one still works, what most people don't understand is that an old machine is still working because it was manufactued well and is very reliable, not always true of new machines. I honestly don't think the machine shop I use has anything newer than 1970 something and they still build me fine motors and have never had a problem with them. And a CNC machine will never give you the same quality work as a human operator can because to the machine it's all the same it can't feel what happens when the tool isn't positioned right or hear it catch in a certain spot. All I know is that machining is very precise art but their is alot of grey area in it as well, I think you may want to reonsider what machine shop you use if it costs you $900 to get a block prepped when you brought the core. And just out of curiousity why did you have it blueprinted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_hunt Posted March 18, 2007 Share Posted March 18, 2007 What started off as a good thread is quickly going bad. Let's keep this on track. Most of you obviously haven't operated a boring bar, and don't know the different types, or machining characteristics of cast iron, steels, aluminum(s) and the different types of valve seats commonly used in todays aluminum aftermarket heads. Tool speed is important to get the desired finish and older machines don't usually possess the ability to alter the speed of the stone and/or cutter for todays higher tech materials. Older valve machines use stones, not the hight tech multi-angle cutters of today. While maintenace is an issue to longetivity, cleanliness of the shop typically reflects maintenance on the machines. In New Mexico, there are 3, reputable owners/operators of automotive machines that do top notch work IMO. Edwards Racing Engines, Albuquerque, NM (505)247-8821 http://www.edwardsracingengines.com They build all of the unsers engines, most of the sprint car engines for customers around the country. Shipping is available. Pricey, but has the latest and greatest in equipment. Budlong Motorsports Albuquerque, NM (505)275-3996 Well renowned builder/machinist, top quality work, late model equipment, best prices!! Keith Mauldin, Mauldins Super Service, Las Cruces, NM (505)523-8771 Old skool, multiple record holding drag racer, has old equipment, knows what he's doing, reasonable prices, top quality work, and "HOME OF THE SMALL BLOCK CHEVROLET!!!!" I've used Edwards for over 25 years, I've just started using Budlongs due to price and the quality is flawless! Keith Mauldin is a friend, he's machined alot of parts for me and IMO he is the one of the Mecca's of knowledge of BBC and SBC engines in the world. He's done it all from the 60's to the present and has held alot of drag racing records. He's a one man band and does all of his own work with no help whatsoever. Blueprinting isn't just the block, it's the entire assembly of an an engine and all of it's component parts, and the blueprint sheet tallies measurements from every aspect of every part from the bore size, crank journals and throws to the rocker arm ratio as measured from seat to full lift. People throw that term "blueprinted" around alot and if you've never done it or watched it done, then you don't know what it means. It can litterally take 6 weeks to fully blueprint an engine and the component parts and it may require the assembly/dissassembly many many times for measuement/machining/component change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lbhsbZ Posted March 19, 2007 Author Share Posted March 19, 2007 I wouldn't Ever base a machine shop on how pretty it is inside, how good you paint blocks, how talkative the machinists are, or how many CNC machines you have. Machines and neat shops don't mean anything without good operators. Just because a machine looks old, doesn't mean it won't work any better than a new machine. Most machines you buy for automotive machine work will last you 50+ years if you maintain them. Also, most machine shops won't use a torque plate or do anything special if you don't tell them what you want to do. I don't see how you could be mad at that. There are many methods and processes to honing, and there isn't one "correct" textbook way.... each person and shop will do things differently. Some shops might have great results while not using a torque plate so they don't use them, while others say you need them and hone everything with one. You could say that since the shop you used didn't seal off your block and put 210 degree water in and hone it at temp, that they didn't do it the "right" way... not trying to argue, just saying that your rant leaves alot open.... and this is from the point of view from a machinist - who deals with a bunch of customers and rants about what people think we should do I agree with some of what you said, but not all of it. If ask a machinist to use a torque plate and torque the mains for his boring/honing procedure, thats the way it should be done. I'm the customer and thats what I'm paying him for...to do what I want done but don't have to the tooling for. When I asked him about it, and recieved the response: "You don't need to do that...I don't even have a torque plate" that made me suspicious, but I figured he knows more than me about it, so I'll let it go. The first block was bored .006" to large, and the second block was bored correctly, but the crank wouldn't turn when the rear maincap was torqued down. I pulled the crank and the bearings, torqued the caps back down and there was a step between the bearing surfaces on the cap and the block on the rear main. A straight edge and feeler guage told me that the thrust surface on the cap was .008" off of the thrust surface on the block. The bearing surface was off too, but I didn't bother measuring that. The block had already been machined to 0 deck clearance (supposedly) and bored. The shop owner ended up sending the block out for align boring, without consulting me first. Seeing as how the boring and decking procedures both reference off of the main bores, I feel that the block is now trash, unless it is rebored and decked after the align honing procedure, becuase if the crank doesn't turn, the other two machining processes were referenced off of a dimension that was not correct. I am not going to built a $10,000 engine with that block. I understand that you cannot judge a shop by its cleanliness or the newness (?) of its machines. What you CAN judge a shop on is the atitudes of its employees and the attention to detail that they display in areas where others wouldn't even think about it. The fact that they show off there work and have a block up on a machine similar to a CMM confirming that they hit the mark with all their procedures. Thats going above and beyond to confirm that the job was done right...with no guessing or speculation. As far as torque plate honing goes, after working for GM, I beleive that it is absolutely necessary to do this in a race engine, maybe not a street engine, but it can't hurt. GM issued a bulletin regarding the intake manifold bolts on their 3.8L V6 engines, stating that the intake bolt torque specs were very important, becuase overtorque could distort the main journals leading to bearing failure. I've seen more than a few bottom end failures on these engines shortly after intake gasket replacement. This illustrates the fact blocks are not as structurally sound as they seem, and anything to preload them and bring them as close to operating conditions as possible during machining is a good idea in my book. For a machinist to dismiss these ideas without a second thought, or without doing the research to discount them and prove that to me, makes for a lacking machinst (this is not pointed at Defrag, or any other machinists that have posted here, but the ones that I have had personal experience with only). I gave the reasons why I thought it was necessary, but my ex-machinst hasn't yet given one reason as to why its better not to do the job my way....he just says, "don't worry about it, it'll be fine" I didn't start this thread to discuss machining practices though, I started this thread to recommend shops in different regions who are well known for quality work and service. I spent a couple hours doing research before I found these guys, and I talked to numerous friends and contacts to arrive at this shop. Until then, I was limited to the local guys. I started this thread to save some people the legwork. And SilentNight, I may have used the term blueprinted in the wrong context. I wanted to make sure that the block was perfectly square. Boring and decking procedures are referenced off of the main journals. It only makes sence to reference off the cam journals to line hone the mains, and then reference of the mains (which are now known true) to do the boring and decking procedures. I usually don't spend this much money building engines, this one I'm willing to spend the money on, and I want it perfect. I see no point in installing a $800 crank, $800 pistons, and $2500 + heads on a questionable block. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_hunt Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 I used to do that to production blocks. In fact the TT350 is just that. That and deck plugs, clearancing front of the block, thread all the galley plug holes, plug all the holes on either side of the cam in the lifter valley, install screens, etc, etc., you end up with as much $$$ as you would buying a dart or world block for $1800, but you end up with a superior block buying aftermarket. Soooooooooooo, nowadays aftermarket looks pretty good! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lbhsbZ Posted March 20, 2007 Author Share Posted March 20, 2007 Yeah, but then you still have to find someone to finish it who won't screw it up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentNight1647 Posted March 24, 2007 Share Posted March 24, 2007 Fair enough, I agree, most people don't know what blueprinting actually is and what a pain in the ass it is to do it properly and just like to say they have a blueprinted motor in their car you seem to have a much better grasp of it than the average idiot. And I didn't realize your old machine shop screwed stuff up that badly I would have changed shops as well, and as far as the torque plate goes I do have it done on 400s because of the thin walls but my machinist does it automatically whenever I bring him one so I don't ever worry about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Shasteen Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 In my early days I used Plano-Auto; they were fine for normal machine work but when you asked for something special they would argue w/me. I remember the counter guy telling me my performance engine (Olds 350) didnt need a 3angle valve job. We all know the performance crowd has proven multi angle valve jobs to be beneficial, however minute, it is still beneficial. For the Dallas area - anyone needing machine work should give Kim Barr a call. His shop is in Garland Tx. Unfortunately I dont have his business card/ph#. Kim Barr Racing is the name of the shop (I think-its been awhile since I last used him). He does a lot of Ford, GM, and Mopar for the racing crowd and will work on anything needed. I remember telling him about how Plano Auto would argue w/me and he told me he gets that alot. He also told me he would do anything to a block I asked - it may cost me, but he would do it anyway I requested; which is what I wanted to hear. I know he meant it as when I showed up to check on the progress he told me he has gone through a couple dozen different intake valves and none of them had measured up to tolerance. I had given him a valve checking tool from Joe Mondello and Kim Barr was using it - Kim actually had to call Joe Modello's shop for advice. Evidently, my Rallaye 350 had special heads/valves on them (?) and Kim actually went the extra effort to get the tolerances correct...that sold me on his credibility. He even invited me to show up the following Saturday as Hot Rod magazine would be doing a special dyno run on some performance engine. I would've liked to see that but couldnt make it. Kim Barr Racing Garland Texas ph# ?....call information. Kevin, (Yea,Still an Inliner) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
specialk Posted March 27, 2007 Share Posted March 27, 2007 Kevin, I've been to Plano Auto recently, just to talk, and they seemed pretty amenable, willing to advise and listen. Of course, I haven't hired them to do anything yet either I will keep your words in mind though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Shasteen Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 I awlays liked the guys at Plano Auto too: just when I wanted high performance mods they were not willing to bend....that was along time ago. Maybe they have "edjumacated" themselves since. All I know is Kim Barr out of Garland will do anything for you and his main source of income is the racing crowd - so whatever is the latest regarding the racing performance mods, he will be on top of it. Most of Plano Auto's is factory machining. If you do use Plano Auto - be very specific and get them to repeat back to you what your expectations are. Kevin, (Yea,Still an Inliner) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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