Exotic "SOUNDING", high revving V8! Read "ENTIRE" thread before posting!!!

[BRAAP]

Braap just turned me on to this thread (thanks paul) and I am 160 posts through, but I suddenly remembered this when the Subaru H-6 came up and just HAD to post it....

 

 

 

 

WAY cool. Any info out there on that monster? Video?

[cygnusx1]

Alfa Romeo was a company closely tied to Ferrari in terms of engineering in the early stages of the two companies. The "Hemi" was used by the two companies long before "Hemi" became a household name. Here is one of the last revisions of the Alfa Romeo motor in V8 form used in the 1970 Montreal.

 

All aluminum, hemi, quad cam, sodium valves, cross-flow, dual distributors, and dual mechanical fuel injection.

 

 

 

.

 

More Info:

http://www.alfamontreal.info/

[Daeron]

WAY cool. Any info out there on that monster? Video?

 

Honestly, not much.. It was used in a failed F1 attempt in 90 or 91.. more info can be found here, and the engine earns a mention in the wikipedia article for "flat 12" but I suspect that may be due to a fellow subaru forum members passionate involvement in wikipedia...

 

Sadly, it was apparently overweight and underpowered...(a mere 600 bhp) but that photo just LOOKs so COOL!! If more information was available on it, it would likely be disappointment.. but I'm sure the engine SOUNDS sexy.

[Careless]

H-12? sick!

[proxlamus©]

Didnt the Ferrari Testarossa have a H-12?!

 

 

anyway.. Cygnus your right!

 

How could an inline 6 sound like a Ferrari! Whaaa??

[happynukes]

if you have an unlimited budget and a full comprehention of building then i would say buy a used formula block and assemble it with the stroke, lift and all the other ratios you need for a high rev but consider this, the original l28 blocks and are easy to modify and cost far less then finding and salvaging an exotic engine. my personal opinion is that the l28 has all the highreving and sound you want.

 

drop some carbs shorten the stroke, add the mikuni's or webbers (tuned right of course) and add the velocity stacks with the right exhaust and you'll have the sound you've been hunting for

 

theres a dude that claims he's stroked and bored his to a 3.1 on youtube.com his sounds great and i think thats the sound your looking for with out the weight and cost

 

i have an 81 z that will get close to 8k without popping and sound great with an open exhaust (no cat)

 

good luck

[blaze73]

Speaking of flat engines....

 

Air cooled flat 16 anyone?

[blaze73]

What about a VW W8 from a passat? Just reading the Jan 2002 issue of automotive engineering mag and they have a feature on the W engines. Here are the specs:

 

271hp @ 6000rpm

273ft/lbs @ 2750rpm

419lbs

16.5"L x 28"W x 26.9"H

 

Since its essentially 2 V4's stuck together its super short at 16.5in! and light.

 

Edit:

Found some more exciting info. The W8 engine is dry sumped stock and the crank layout is....FLAT PLANE! The only downside is that the 15deg angle of the banks doesnt allow large bores resulting in an 84mm bore and 90.2mm stroke.

[Gollum]

The flat 4 to inline 4 comparison doesn't work, because ALL of those engines have flat plane cranks, so it's not too great of a comparison.

 

I don't think the lopy sound a V8 makes can be cleaned up with just exhaust. The lopyness is inherent to the firing order. Lemme think of an analogy that might make sense, and hopefully will be accurate.

 

We'll use a drum beat.

 

Imagine the basic boom chuck that uses the kick drum and the snare. It's just goes:

 

Boom : Chuck : Boom : Chuck : Boom : Chuck : Boom : Chuck :

 

We'll call that a flat plan crank V8. Now imagine this beat in your head:

 

Boom : Boom : Chuck : Boom : Boom : Chuck

 

And in a pause after the chuck and you have "we will we will ROCK YOU!"

 

Lets call that last one Domestic V8.

 

Now what you have to realise is that it doesn't matter if you change the tempo, the drums, the drum heads, the sticks, even the drummer... the idea of the beats won't change and will still go along to the songs they were written for.

 

Not all engine noise is created by the exhaust and those pistons are pounding away in the motor to a certain rhythm. It's going to be VERY hard to replicate a different engine running a different rhythm without changing the inherent rhythm of the engine in question.

 

 

Where's braap at? Does this make sense? I think I'm pretty accurate on this analogy.

[ShaggyZ]

Shaggy,

Sorry bud, but yes you are missing something. You missed the rest of this thread!

 

Go back read through this entire thread and you will find where HEADER types and designs to do just that, have been discussed with links to those headers and to make your own. They are called 180 degree headers! Even some videos!

 

Ha! I will take that to assume I was right, but it had already been discussed... and I missed it.

[BRAAP]

The flat 4 to inline 4 comparison doesn't work, because ALL of those engines have flat plane cranks, so it's not too great of a comparison.

 

I don't think the lopy sound a V8 makes can be cleaned up with just exhaust. The lopyness is inherent to the firing order. Lemme think of an analogy that might make sense, and hopefully will be accurate.

 

We'll use a drum beat.

 

Imagine the basic boom chuck that uses the kick drum and the snare. It's just goes:

 

Boom : Chuck : Boom : Chuck : Boom : Chuck : Boom : Chuck :

 

We'll call that a flat plan crank V8. Now imagine this beat in your head:

 

Boom : Boom : Chuck : Boom : Boom : Chuck

 

And in a pause after the chuck and you have "we will we will ROCK YOU!"

 

Lets call that last one Domestic V8.

 

Now what you have to realise is that it doesn't matter if you change the tempo, the drums, the drum heads, the sticks, even the drummer... the idea of the beats won't change and will still go along to the songs they were written for.

 

Not all engine noise is created by the exhaust and those pistons are pounding away in the motor to a certain rhythm. It's going to be VERY hard to replicate a different engine running a different rhythm without changing the inherent rhythm of the engine in question.

 

 

Where's braap at? Does this make sense? I think I'm pretty accurate on this analogy.

 

 

 

 

Gollum,

You are on the right track. The Subaru Flat 4 with a free flowing exhaust sounds like it has misfire, (it doesn’t, really, it just sounds that way), due to it firing events and when those pulse meet up in the exhaust, for the same reason a Domestic V-8 has that distinct "bumpity bumpity BUMP bumpity bumpity BUMP" in its exhaust note. This diagram should help show that alit more clearly, regarding the V-8s, (topic of this thread).

 

 

 

 

The very distinct exhaust sound made by a dual plane V8 is from the irregular firing order. Each time two cylinders fire on the same side in sequence, the two exhaust pulses create high exhaust pressure and noise which can be heard out the tailpipe. This repeats later in the firing order on the other side of the engine.

Often times, balance pipes are used to equalize the large exhaust pressure difference between each side of the engine. The pressure equalization improves exhaust scavenging, especially at low RPM.

 

 

[BRAAP]

Ha! I will take that to assume I was right, but it had already been discussed... and I missed it.

 

Yeeupsie doodle. You were very much on the right track.

For some odd reason, those 180 degree headers get the dual plane V-8 "almost" to the same note as the flat plane V-8 cranks, though not quite. In those videos, you can still make out the rumpity roughness of a dual plane V-8, not quite the same high pitch rap of the single plane crank V-8's

[Daeron]

Yeeupsie doodle. You were very much on the right track.

For some odd reason, those 180 degree headers get the dual plane V-8 "almost" to the same note as the flat plane V-8 cranks, though not quite. In those videos, you can still make out the rumpity roughness of a dual plane V-8, not quite the same high pitch rap of the single plane crank V-8's

 

ShaggyZ:

 

*IF* I am understanding everything rightly (and I am 99.99% positive I am) then the simple version is that there are two distinct sounds; the "exhaust note" and the actual firing of the engine. Picture a bugle being played by someone with eight lungs, each individually controlled (sorry, metaphor stretching) Since the "180* headers" tweak the pulses into the same order entering the pipes as the single plane crank would, the "exhaust note" is being played by a pair of lips doing the same thing.. BUT, underneath, the lungs are still bapping out from an "uneven" order, so the overall sound of the engine doesn't land quite in the same ballpark.

 

In other words, the mechanical running of the engine in this even-fire order makes as much of a difference in the overall note from the exhaust, as the "exhaust note" achieved through header piping does.

 

 

Also, the high revs go hand-in-hand with this "budget flat-plane SBC" idea, not for any particular reason to do with the crank; its a tad more complex than that. from what I have gathered, these flat-plane cranks are not easy to balance at high displacements, so Braap wanted to de-stroke it both to lower the displacement, but more importantly to reduce the linear speed that the pistons and roads move within the cylinder block. At 6000 RPM, a piston with a 4 inch stroke is moving 48,000 inches per minute; the piston with the 2 inch stroke is moving at half that speed, 24,000 inches per minute. This reduction in speed both lessens the sidewise-forces that needed to be balanced in the first place, AND allows for much cheaper, widely available parts to be used in the rotating mass. In short, the motor Braap is kicking around is not a high-revving, low-displacement, single-plane V8, made out of a SBC.... it is a "high revving low displacement single plane V8 made out of a SBC." (ie, not a motor with various attributes, but a set of attributes that combined make up a VERY particular motor)

I hope this cleared something up. In all seriousness, if its total gibberish, someone please just delete this post send me a PM letting me know that I wasn't quite right enough to be any help.

[Guest 240zSean]

Okay okay... This thread has compelled me to register (even though I've been lurking for darn near 2 years). I absolutely love this idea a Ferrari sound out of a datsun 240z would raise more than a few eyebrows, all in the right ways.

 

Being a poor college student makes it difficult to pursue this project, although if you gents could find a feasible way to make this a reality I would pinch every penny to get on board.

 

Share Share Share!!

[blaze73]

W8...

Someone buy this....

Flat plane, dry sump...

http://forums.fourtitude.com/zerothread?id=3566341

[Gollum]

Hmmm, I didn't think the W8 would sound that good so I went hunting for some clips (my assumption was based on the fact that it's not firing ever 90 degrees so the pulses wouldn't be even)

 

 

 

 

 

I think with open exhaust it might sound pretty good. Definately has some exoticness to it.

[BRAAP]

The last video was for sure the better one regarding exhaust note. Sounds more like a Dodge Viper V-10, or a 5 cylinder. A RAP that is also Coarse and has distinct Brump in the tone. Different for sure, but not the exotic tone of say an F-1 car, Ferrari, or sport bike, exhaust sound we are trying to achieve.

 

Now the Ford V-10 MOD motor with free flowing exhaust has that tone… Hmmm…

[Gollum]

Oh I agree, doesn't sound exotic in the realm of F-1, Ferrari or the likes, but it certainly sounds DIFFERENT from the average V8 and I can envision that sound coming from a supercar.

 

Makes me think of the high end AMG Mercedes sounds..... oOo boy do those cars sound fantastic.

 

So... ford V10 sounds like what now? I've never thought they were that out of the ordinary sounding... And those engines aren't THAT hard to come by. just a little pricey. (though not as bad as say... a used F1 engine...)

 

Braap - are you holding onto any V10 videos you're not sharing with us? Because I'm about to go do some searching...

[Gollum]

Wow, some of these sound pretty freaggin' amazing.

 

 

 

 

That's all for now. I'll find some more later.

[BRAAP]

I don’t have any videos that I have been holding, just heard a couple V-10 ford pickups running around town with nice sounding exhausts.

 

Here are a few more...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIiK2rt69ts&feature=related