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Oil pan baffle trap door design?


Bob_H

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that seems like the best solution for all types of lateral acceleration, does that seem right to you? Also that way i can keep the stock windage trays and then that would solve all problems with the dropping oil pressure

 

I don't think its the end all solution. It is a good solution - hence why I chose it, but there are better options out there - dry sumping being one of the best, and most expensive.

The windage trays aren't going to stop dropping oil pressure - they are only going to help from getting air in the oil - i.e. it gives the oil time to settle down before it gets in the sump, allowing the air to seperate from the oil - they are only one part of the solution.

In the end, what you are talking about will help, but not eleminate the problem - nothing really will. But if your not tracking your car really hard - you likely won't have any issue at all.

-Bob

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I don't think its the end all solution. It is a good solution - hence why I chose it, but there are better options out there - dry sumping being one of the best, and most expensive.

The windage trays aren't going to stop dropping oil pressure - they are only going to help from getting air in the oil - i.e. it gives the oil time to settle down before it gets in the sump, allowing the air to seperate from the oil - they are only one part of the solution.

In the end, what you are talking about will help, but not eleminate the problem - nothing really will. But if your not tracking your car really hard - you likely won't have any issue at all.

-Bob

 

i would go dry sump if it wasnt so expensive but, i think the next best solution for me personally is what i stated, i will be tracking my car pretty hard in the redline time attack circuit next year so i will have to look into another baffle plate to help with oil flow to the pick up tube

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Bob here are some pictures of my Thargard sump with modifications have added baffles and trap doors (still have to build the doors up) and have made the oil pick up pipe to fit the new sump design and have added a brace that bolts to the front windage tray, we only used the original new pick up end and the block mount and made the rest up.

 

In the first picture you can see the pen marking the centre of the sump the baffles were then made to fit around this i did make up a template design first to see that it all fitted OK before we welded it up.

 

The oil pick up pipe has 1/2" clearance from the bottom of the pan and in the last picture you can see where it fits.

Hybridz sump 001_thumb.jpg

Hybridz sump 002_thumb.jpg

Hybridz sump 003_thumb.jpg

Hybridz sump 004_thumb.jpg

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Good to see someone else using the stock flange. My only concern with your design is under braking - that is a very long sump front-rear and under braking you can see lots of fluid movement away from your pickup under even moderate braking. I'd seriously look at that trap door and do what you can to ensure minimal to no oil will flow forward under braking. Maybe a rubber edge etc... You just don't see long fore-aft design pans for that reason. Just something to consider.

BTW, nice drain baffle design.

-Bob

 

This is the exact problem I am currently having with my pan. I did a pan similar to Joel's with a single trap door, top drain backs and a rear external pickup. Oil pressure is great until I do a stop on a decline or a very hard stop on level surface, then it drops pretty hard, at first it would go near 0, but I have done some further modifications (changed pickup style and now 3/8th off the bottom and added a upper plate with fewer drain backs) which has helped but it still drops to 1 bar of pressure where normal idle is at 2 bar. In hindsight during the last modification I should have also sealed the gaps around the trap door to further help reduce the oil from flowing towards the front of the pan, but I still don't think this would solve my issue completely.

 

Such a frustrating issue, at this point I kind of want to just gut the pan and start over, but I feel if I do that I should switch back to internal pickup... which then leads to wanting to go a new oil pump if I am going to go through the work pulling off the current N1 pump.

 

Modified top plate, with fewer drains back and a lip overhanging the trap door

Oil%20Pan%20Try%202%20010.jpg

 

Original top plate, way too many gaps and holes.

Oil%20Pan%20Try%202%20007.jpg

 

Modified Pickup, still external

Oil%20Pan%20Try%202%20011.jpg

 

Original pickup

Finished%20Oil%20Pan%20004.jpg

 

 

Bob here are some pictures of my Thargard sump with modifications have added baffles and trap doors (still have to build the doors up) and have made the oil pick up pipe to fit the new sump design and have added a brace that bolts to the front windage tray, we only used the original new pick up end and the block mount and made the rest up.

 

In the first picture you can see the pen marking the centre of the sump the baffles were then made to fit around this i did make up a template design first to see that it all fitted OK before we welded it up.

 

The oil pick up pipe has 1/2" clearance from the bottom of the pan and in the last picture you can see where it fits.

 

Great start on that pan! This is the exact kind of design I want to do when I redo my pan. You may want to think about moving the trap door up a bit instead of right off the bottom to stop oil from going under the door. My current door is not sealed perfect along the bottom (to avoid it binding) nor the vertical surface between where the door rests and the side of the pan and its amazing how much oil leaks past on those small gaps.

 

What are you planning to do for the top plate? how many drain backs are you planning to use and how large of an opening for the pickup?

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The oil pick up pipe has 1/2" clearance from the bottom of the pan and in the last picture you can see where it fits.

 

Just make sure that the 1/2" clearance is from the actual pipe pickup point and not from the screen - as that has no effect on the pickup suction.

Your design is exactly what I was going to do on my oil pan before I changed designs - however I was going to make the "diamond" smaller to keep the volume reasonable as with a big area, under braking it can still uncover the pickup.

Intersting to see synthtk's pan has the loss of pressure under breaking issue.

A big part of any design is the top plate - that can help direct oil into the pickup area vice dumping it into the areas outside of the pickup areas. There are good discussions on the V8 rX-7 forum where a new baffle plate was designed.

-Bob

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Just make sure that the 1/2" clearance is from the actual pipe pickup point and not from the screen - as that has no effect on the pickup suction.

-Bob

 

Yes its 1/2" from the pickup point and not the screen.

 

The diamond shape size was made so that when the trap doors open they did not hit the pickup pipe if the diamond shape was smaller then they would.

 

Also remember that when both front or rear doors open if they are spaced too close together then they will catch.

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Something to consider on door design - the doors don't need to open all the way - I'd say up to about 30-40 degrees max. If you look at many aftermarket designs - they have travel limiters for the doors anyways which limit it to about 20-30 degrees total opening. I don't know if you incorperated that into your design or not.

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Something to consider on door design - the doors don't need to open all the way - I'd say up to about 30-40 degrees max. If you look at many aftermarket designs - they have travel limiters for the doors anyways which limit it to about 20-30 degrees total opening. I don't know if you incorperated that into your design or not.

 

Yes have built in travel limiter into the flaps, have taken out the original pin and replaced with metal rod that is slightly thinner, then at both ends it is turned in at a angle so it only open part way about 35 degrees the thinner rod also allows less friction between the two hindges the photos are the mock up and uses garden wire to see if it all worked OK.

Oil Pan Flaps 001_thumb.jpg

Oil Pan Flaps 002_thumb.jpg

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  • 6 months later...

I'm about to embark on the RB pan odyssey for a customer. Did any of you guys finish yours and are happy with the results?

 

FYI... I might make a production run of 5 or 10 or so if the cost works out unless there is a solution already made.

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  • 4 weeks later...
  • 7 months later...
I'm about to embark on the RB pan odyssey for a customer. Did any of you guys finish yours and are happy with the results?

 

FYI... I might make a production run of 5 or 10 or so if the cost works out unless there is a solution already made.

 

John, any further work on this project?

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The pan and pickup are built and in the car. I'm waiting for the startup and for the car to be run for a while before I decided whether I'm building and selling the pan. Filling it with water it looks like its will hold 7 to 8 quarts but i need to check what the dipstick shows.

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The pan and pickup are built and in the car. I'm waiting for the startup and for the car to be run for a while before I decided whether I'm building and selling the pan. Filling it with water it looks like its will hold 7 to 8 quarts but i need to check what the dipstick shows.

 

Hi John any pictures of the pan/pick up before you fitted it ?

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  • 6 years later...

I'm having oil pickup problems with my RB when on track, current trap door setup is fine for acceleration and braking but sucks for cornering. So I plan to add another box around the pickup.

 

 

Metal hinges or rubber flaps?

 

Diamond or square? In my head square with the side of the sump works best but I see more at 45 degrees to the side (diamond shape if you will) so I assume this is bettter but I can't work out why?

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  • 1 month later...

I had to look back through your old build thread - you have a very big sump area so not very suprising. 

To answer your #1 question, diamond is what I would do - nearly every good aftermarket pan I looked at had it setup that way.  

 For the "why", my best thoughts as a long ago mechanical engineer would be that rarely are the forces purely side to side - they often have a component of accel or decel - so some of that fluid will move forward or aft as well as to the side.  The diamond better handles that situation vs a square parallel to the sides of the sump.  In pure fore/aft acceleration/decelaration - the square and diamond should perform the same. 

 Your problem is in turns at the track - so you have slight accel with side loading - so the fluid/oil is trying to go to the side and back of the sump. (or if braking/slowing, to the side/front). 

 That is my best guess - but that is not my area of expertise.  As you observed, I just saw many competition pans built that way, so I used my logic above, and went with the diamond since I couldn't run calcuations either way. 

 Second - I personally wouldn't worry about the drain at the back of the head - read back on post 14 for some more background info on why I would say that.  That is Chiefrd who used to post here among other places and still builds very high end/high power RB motors,(and SRs, etc..) over in Japan. 

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  • 3 weeks later...

I think I'll try to to for a diamond shape box with two rubber flaps per side and another straight baffle plate behind that with at least 4 of the rubber flaps.

 

 

 

Not all that happy with my sump so I'm considering getting a new one made to my design. There a guy in Australia who's sumps look good. 

 

http://www.cjfab.com.au/?page_id=225

 

Thinking about one of those but with a larger tray and my design of baffling. It has a cnc flange so at least it should be level unlike mine which would make sealing it much easier.

 

 

 

I'll upload some photos of the above sump and my current one and see who think it better to modify mine or start with a new one.

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