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Project 240Z Turbo ITB Install


S30TRBO

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I didn't point you to this one... I pointed you to the Monzster thread which explains the dynamics of the setup!

 

It's not noob-hating, btw. You did that one yourself, I merely pointed out the error of your ways. Like a dog in obedience school with that choke collar, how can you be expected to learn if never corrected?

 

I'm not big on the dog chain wearing requirement for noobs, though I concede it would make them more well mannered at some sites I frequent.

 

Then again, so would a shock collar.

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  • 4 months later...

UPDATE:

 

I am waiting on Rebello to start my damper. I had to send him the SDS Hall Sensor bracket and old NISMO pulley because he wanted mock it up on one of his motors to mount the magnets. He received it two weeks ago and said last Friday he should start this week. It's so close I can taste it!!

 

In the meantime I picked up a BRAAP P90 to get swapped in right before the turbo goes on.. :)

 

BRAAPP90.jpg

 

BRAAPP90-1.jpg

 

BRAAPP90-2.jpg

 

BRAAPP90-3.jpg

 

Thanks Clive!

Edited by S30TRBO
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  • 1 month later...

Hell Yeah she started for the first time in a little over 3 years after taking the SU off. She started right up on the first try after triple checking everything and I even pulled the valve cover, took a plug and turned her over to build the oil pressure up and get some oil into the head. Besides from running rich and idling about 1500-1800 I have some SDS 101 learning to do. Thanks for all the support and advice everyone and watch for more videos!

 

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  • 2 years later...

Explain to me again why you need to get rid of the ITB's to go "Full Turbo"?

 

I'm sure George can explain what I'm talking about...

 

I don't want the hassle of dealing with 6 ITB's over a single throttle body. Yes it can be done, yes I know the RB26 uses them stock but it was a pain to get them running decent. Besides Extrudabody only makes the back plate and I would have to have someone build the plenum to enclose them.

 

By "Full Turbo" I mean I've had a built L28ET minus the turbo bits for years. What I thought was a progression stage and evolution of power for this engine only caused more headache. Time to $hit or get off the pot unless you have any better ideas? I'm close to washing my hands with these ITB and definitely done with SDS. I need a more modern ECU and something that someone local can tune and not rely on email and phone exchanges for minimal gain. No local car guys anymore just beyond frustrated Tony is all..

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I don't want the hassle of dealing with 6 ITB's over a single throttle body. Yes it can be done, yes I know the RB26 uses them stock but it was a pain to get them running decent. Besides Extrudabody only makes the back plate and I would have to have someone build the plenum to enclose them.

 

By "Full Turbo" I mean I've had a built L28ET minus the turbo bits for years. What I thought was a progression stage and evolution of power for this engine only caused more headache. Time to $hit or get off the pot unless you have any better ideas? I'm close to washing my hands with these ITB and definitely done with SDS. I need a more modern ECU and something that someone local can tune and not rely on email and phone exchanges for minimal gain. No local car guys anymore just beyond frustrated Tony is all..

As far as I can tell, the only reason to stick with ITBs is to have something that's different from most other cars. In my book, that's not a great reason.

 

Join the pack of l28et owners who rarely complain about their cars, and stop feeling like you're missing out on something. You've been at this long enough, and if someone else wants to carry the torch of ITB/SDS for awhile (and pay you for the privilege), I say let them.

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If they are running well, why change? Slap an HKS Type2 on there and follow the logical progression of the build.

 

You aren't making any more power now over a custom plenum N/A Motor...

 

Once they're set, they're set. Giving them up now for a manifold that flows what...maybe 190cfm per runner at best...

 

You just wasted all that time!

 

Stay with it, and more power at lower boost. Watch the threads...it's boost pressure (the Corky Bell Approach) that causes difficulties in a turbo build.

 

A good lowing head and good cam makes killer power at 8psi, half the power most others. Make doing the "maximum boost" program.

 

Then again, if you make a custom intake...oh, waitaminit...

 

You are three bolt on parts from going turbo: a turbo, an HKS box, and a turbo manifold. Retune and run.

 

I've done it for years. People at MSA one year said "wasn't this car turbocharged for the autoX yesterday?" It was, but in 45 minutes it wasn't anymore. Changed over the morning of the show. And with EFI it's even easier...no jet change required!

 

This sounds more like a failure to grasp the basics of the project than a failure of the individual components. I don't know what SDS you have, but there are plenty out there running just fine without headaches, same as Megasquirt, MOTEC, Emerald, and for that matter ITB's.

 

If you have issues it's likely form basic things overlooked or improper procedures. I don't know. Many times its misguided efforts and unrealistic goals. Like putting ITB's on a cast-piston N/A Motor with no cam. Terrible parts mismatch. On a turbo, the ITB's flow difference over the stock manifold makes for a big power difference at the same "plenum boost" as the stock manifold setup.

 

Flow matters more than boost. High flow turbo engines (low boost) run into less tuning issues than mega boost engines making the same power.

 

No, you don't need it. But you really are willing to toss out all the time you put in to get it "right" and start over with everything new?

 

Having others tune? There is investment in personal learning in a project like this. If you abdicate that, you invariably end up disappointed with the result.

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Boosted ITB's are cool. I REALLY wanted mine to work properly, and with a turbocharger they probably would have just fine. I only gave them up for one reason: safety. I was having issues with the supercharger blowing the throttle open, and that killed them for me.

 

The intake manifold will readily accept them back, if I ever want them back...

 

For the two hours I ran ITB's with 8.5lbs of boost, they felt GREAT. A little more difficult than a single throttle, but switching to the MAF sensor with a known transfer curve and drivability was perfect up till the MAF freaked out from "prop wash" out of the inlet of the supercharger. If I had some more room for piping, I could have probably eliminated the MAF freakout, which would make MAF tuning soooo easy.

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Oh crap, I see why there is an Extrudabody reference...argh! Well you could make a simple adapter plate to fit the ITB's everybody else uses...(Standard DCOE front flange dimensions)

 

I thought they were an overly complex setup with excessive linkages due to design theory... If they're working now...the comment still applies.

 

Xnke's blown throttle plates has an interesting challenge to it. Vacuum secondaries do that if they aren't mechanical... There is enough overcenter in the stock linkages which should prevent that but the Supercharger bypass may need more work... Lift-throttle should not produce boost if bypass or BOV tuning is correct. Strange. That's one I'd like to dig into.

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Flow matters more than boost. High flow turbo engines (low boost) run into less tuning issues than mega boost engines making the same power.

 

You know, Big-Phil comes to mind, because his friend Chris (who I believe is a member here) owns a blue S30 with a turbo L motor. At one point Chris made 402hp at 17psi while Phil made 342 at 25psi. Phil seemed to run into problem after problem. Phil, as much as I love him, was kind of cheap about certain things. In the end he probably spent as much on his L motor as Chris did, but never saw as much power (from what I recall...). How many turbos did Phil run? He ran TWO different standalones (MS then later haltech). He ended up having to swap/rebuild his bottom end, yada yada yada. 

 

I personally attribute many of Phil's problems he had along the way to his Maximum Boost mindset. He loved power, and instead of planning out a build, he'd turn up the boost until he hit a limitation. Fix that limitation, and then ramp it back up.

 

Tony knows a bit of what I plan, and for my dream L build, that might actually become a reality in the not SO distant future, I'll be putting MOST of my investment into the head, then followed by the fuel system, then followed by other odds and ends. The reality is that I've seen time and time again, THOSE are the places that success comes from. Get the head to flow (which includes induction and exhaust, as a SYSTEM!), and then make sure your fuel system is up to snuff to tackle the challenge at hand. The rest is icing on the cake.

 

I'm sorry to hear you've had issue with SDS. I also understand that it's frustrating to not be able to find someone to help you tune it. It's a rather unfortunate reality, but too many of us buy something we think we can handle ourselves, just to find out we cant', and are then stuck at the mercy of those in the know of that product. The truth is that most people should probably shop for their EMS by who they trust/know to tune it, and go with what they recommend. Many of us assume we can tune an EMS system all by ourself, or assume that a dyno shop can tune ANY EMS... Not always the case sadly...

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As far as I can tell, the only reason to stick with ITBs is to have something that's different from most other cars. In my book, that's not a great reason.

 

Join the pack of l28et owners who rarely complain about their cars, and stop feeling like you're missing out on something. You've been at this long enough, and if someone else wants to carry the torch of ITB/SDS for awhile (and pay you for the privilege), I say let them.

 

That's how I feel Jesse, you can see how far this thread goes back...

 

If they are running well, why change? Slap an HKS Type2 on there and follow the logical progression of the build.

 

You aren't making any more power now over a custom plenum N/A Motor...

 

Once they're set, they're set. Giving them up now for a manifold that flows what...maybe 190cfm per runner at best...

 

You just wasted all that time!

 

Stay with it, and more power at lower boost. Watch the threads...it's boost pressure (the Corky Bell Approach) that causes difficulties in a turbo build.

 

A good lowing head and good cam makes killer power at 8psi, half the power most others. Make doing the "maximum boost" program.

 

Then again, if you make a custom intake...oh, waitaminit...

 

You are three bolt on parts from going turbo: a turbo, an HKS box, and a turbo manifold. Retune and run.

 

I've done it for years. People at MSA one year said "wasn't this car turbocharged for the autoX yesterday?" It was, but in 45 minutes it wasn't anymore. Changed over the morning of the show. And with EFI it's even easier...no jet change required!

 

This sounds more like a failure to grasp the basics of the project than a failure of the individual components. I don't know what SDS you have, but there are plenty out there running just fine without headaches, same as Megasquirt, MOTEC, Emerald, and for that matter ITB's.

 

If you have issues it's likely form basic things overlooked or improper procedures. I don't know. Many times its misguided efforts and unrealistic goals. Like putting ITB's on a cast-piston N/A Motor with no cam. Terrible parts mismatch. On a turbo, the ITB's flow difference over the stock manifold makes for a big power difference at the same "plenum boost" as the stock manifold setup.

 

Flow matters more than boost. High flow turbo engines (low boost) run into less tuning issues than mega boost engines making the same power.

 

No, you don't need it. But you really are willing to toss out all the time you put in to get it "right" and start over with everything new?

 

Having others tune? There is investment in personal learning in a project like this. If you abdicate that, you invariably end up disappointed with the result.

 

Thanks for your words of wisdom as always Tony.  I'm running the EM-6F (coil packs and hall sensor off a custom BHJ pulley. 

 

Look like they have already done the HKS style box.. :)

 

206960_10150158004411297_5905425_n.jpg

 

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206421_10150158004846297_3413721_n.jpg

 

 

 

 

You know, Big-Phil comes to mind, because his friend Chris (who I believe is a member here) owns a blue S30 with a turbo L motor. At one point Chris made 402hp at 17psi while Phil made 342 at 25psi. Phil seemed to run into problem after problem. Phil, as much as I love him, was kind of cheap about certain things. In the end he probably spent as much on his L motor as Chris did, but never saw as much power (from what I recall...). How many turbos did Phil run? He ran TWO different standalones (MS then later haltech). He ended up having to swap/rebuild his bottom end, yada yada yada. 

 

I personally attribute many of Phil's problems he had along the way to his Maximum Boost mindset. He loved power, and instead of planning out a build, he'd turn up the boost until he hit a limitation. Fix that limitation, and then ramp it back up.

 

Tony knows a bit of what I plan, and for my dream L build, that might actually become a reality in the not SO distant future, I'll be putting MOST of my investment into the head, then followed by the fuel system, then followed by other odds and ends. The reality is that I've seen time and time again, THOSE are the places that success comes from. Get the head to flow (which includes induction and exhaust, as a SYSTEM!), and then make sure your fuel system is up to snuff to tackle the challenge at hand. The rest is icing on the cake.

 

I'm sorry to hear you've had issue with SDS. I also understand that it's frustrating to not be able to find someone to help you tune it. It's a rather unfortunate reality, but too many of us buy something we think we can handle ourselves, just to find out we cant', and are then stuck at the mercy of those in the know of that product. The truth is that most people should probably shop for their EMS by who they trust/know to tune it, and go with what they recommend. Many of us assume we can tune an EMS system all by ourself, or assume that a dyno shop can tune ANY EMS... Not always the case sadly...

 

 

 

Once I had it running decent I loaded her up and took her to a local tuner that I knew didn't specialize in SDS but I wanted to give it a shot. We had her strapped down she was idling a little high 1300-1400rpm and started make the first pull. Well I couldn't get out of second gear so we went to the LCD. The LCD was freaking out showing black boxes on the display, so I whipped out the troubleshoot guide and followed the directions specific to that. Nothing we seen was out of line, started her back up (mind you we haven't touched anything) and the idle would raise slightly on its own hold the drop down 600rpm then back up. We messed with it for over an hour and the shop felt bad and only charged me the strap down fee. So I towed her home and she has been sitting since. I have a personal relationship with the guys from SDS and I have even offered to fly them in yet to no avail. I've even posted in this forum to reach out to other SDS owners local to me for help with no results. It seems like the more and more people I talk to who are either tuners or car guys say ditch the SDS and start over. Others are saying if the end goal is EFI turbo ditch the ITB.. The more this goes along the higher the price tag keeps on getting unfortunately..

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The more this goes along the higher the price tag keeps on getting unfortunately..

 

Ahh yes.... the sad song of many with unfinished projects.

 

I know this post will be more philosophical than plain advice, but here's my two worthless cents... I've seen project after project abandoned due to "lack of funds" when the person happened to be less than $100 away from the answer to their problems. We tend to get stuck at roadblocks and if we don't have the intestinal fortitude to get through the struggle. It's not always lack of understanding that keeps up from overcoming. Don't lose heart.

 

As far as real situation advice, I'd say you might either have some defective hardware, or you've got electrical issues. I don't have much experience with SDS, but I know with megasquirt noise issues are insanely common and many times that boils down to grounding problems quite often. Many people have ditched megasquirt because of their inability to cut their teeth finding the source of their issue. There was another thread recently where someone's MS problem ended up being they trusted the trigger wheel wizard instead of reading up for himself to find out what he had, and how to set it up properly from scratch. I felt bad for the guy. He was willing to ditch MS completely, but his problem was his own ignorance (and realize I don't use the word ignorance in a degrading way, look up the meaning of the word and you'll see what I mean). I'd hate to see you have take a huge loss on the SDS and/or ITB's because of an "unsolvable problem" that ends up being solved by someone else for next to nothing. 

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Go with MS over SDS.  I believe there to be a LOT more support out there for MS, and free support at that.  As long as you follow instructions properly, you should have no problems getting MS running, and running right.  I have MSed a few vehicles, including my own 280ZX. I also MSed a 2jzgte into a mkIII supra, with all stock sensors.  Fired the first time, but wouldnt stay running for more than a minute.  I came to find out that the shop NEVER FILLED THE CRANKCASE WITH OIL.   they filled it and drove it onto the trailer with nothing more than a generated base map.

 

 I had a minor issue with the vb921 coil driver (remember those?  ha ha)  and switched to a nissan coil driver and havent looked back.  Plus, MS will support MAF, which I believe would eliminate a LOT of tuning issues with a turbo and ITBs.  

 

The MS community is strong, especially for L series stuff.  LOTS of know how and help available.  

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