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Motorcycle Advice - 250R vs 650R


Pete84

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Well, I finally got a bike.

 

1993 Yamaha XJ600S Seca II. Don't have any pics yet as I haven't taken possession, but it is in nice condition. 36.1K miles, carbs just synced, rear brake redone. Got it for $2000. Plus it is a very livable bike, with good upright posture.

 

Took a bit to find a jacket that I liked, and settled on the Joe Rocket Alter Ego 2.0. Got the dealer to bring the price down to $253, their retail is normally $275, but as they had to order it and it is for sale right around $250 on websites, they decided to play ball :D

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Watch out for overanticipating turns, I wrecked my buddies bike a few weeks ago doing that. I ended up going straight, thankfully virginia is full of cornfields, and most are cut by this time of the year.....it sucked.

 

What does "overanticipating turns" mean? I don't mean to be condescending, but I have a feeling that was your first or second time to ride a bike :wc: The only reason I'm even commenting is that it is dangerous as a totally new, inexperienced rider to give advice to another new rider.

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To me it sounds like target fixation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Target_fixation which is one of the most common causes of single vehicle motorcycle accidents. The wikipedia definition is somewhat broad, if you read any of the advanced riding books they go into much more defined explinations and examples. Along the same train of thought a general rule of thumb is that if you highside the bike you were riding beyond your capabilities if you lowside the bike you were pushing the bike beyond its capabilities.

 

Dragonfly

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It didn't sound like target fixation. Target fixation is a very simple concept based on the concept of "you go where you look." Target fixation is basically just making a turn, then seeing the outside of the turn or a guardrail or tree and concentrating on not hitting it, which then causes you to head straight for that object. It's hard to snap out once you've been caught by the target fixation "sirens."

 

 

Curious, Dragonfly, where did you get that rule of them regarding highsides and lowsides? It's not necessarily wrong, but it's not something that could be considered a rule of thumb, in my opinion. Lowsides are most common and are the safest, but a highside or lowside can happen no matter who the rider or the bike is - in fact, high sides usually just happen because the lowside regained traction.

 

Actually, most lowsides happen because the rider had poor form, not because the bike was pushed beyond its ability. It is HIGHLY unlikely that 90% (made-up estimate) of riders can outride their bike with proper form and skill.

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It didn't sound like target fixation. Target fixation is a very simple concept based on the concept of "you go where you look." Target fixation is basically just making a turn, then seeing the outside of the turn or a guardrail or tree and concentrating on not hitting it, which then causes you to head straight for that object. It's hard to snap out once you've been caught by the target fixation "sirens."

 

 

Curious, Dragonfly, where did you get that rule of them regarding highsides and lowsides? It's not necessarily wrong, but it's not something that could be considered a rule of thumb, in my opinion. Lowsides are most common and are the safest, but a highside or lowside can happen no matter who the rider or the bike is - in fact, high sides usually just happen because the lowside regained traction.

 

Actually, most lowsides happen because the rider had poor form, not because the bike was pushed beyond its ability. It is HIGHLY unlikely that 90% (made-up estimate) of riders can outride their bike with proper form and skill.

 

I realize I do not normally quantify this but when I use the term "general rules of thumb" it is what I create from my own distilled views of things I have read, talked to others about (with more experiance than myself) and personal experiance. From the above I have seen a trend that shows less experianced riders tend to highside considerably more often than lowside mostly due to the fact that newer riders do not trust themselves or thier bikes enough to push into a lowside (or regain grip and highside it) this is considering good weather and road conditions, in bad weather and slippery road conditions the opposite will be true. A rear brake lockup which is fairly common to newer riders from what I have seen tend to cause highsides if not recovered. I also feel that most "blow the curve" type situations are caused to a degree by target fixation that is usualy brought on by coming in to hot and looking for an out rather than a path through the curve.

 

I do feel that people who are more experianced riders tend to lowside more often than highside but that is something that comes with pushing the limits be it of yourself or the bike. Suggested reading would be anything by Keith Code or Freddie Spencer.

 

As a side note I tend to try to study the cause of accidents as well as read the findings by those who study them for a living any time I can. Also as I think about it more I should have used the term "in my opinion" rather than "general rule of thumb".

 

It is HIGHLY unlikely that 90% (made-up estimate) of riders can outride their bike with proper form and skill.

 

This I agree with you completly on but my made up estimate would be higher.

 

Dragonfly

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I'll preface my comments with the following...

 

I'm 42 years old, had my "M" class since 1982, and I've had one ticket and zero accidents since getting my M. My business partner races Supermoto and thru him, I've been able to get my hands on several Supermotos, including a custom Husqi/Fast-by-Feracci built race bike, and he currently races a KTM560 SM... He competed last year in the Pikes Peak race on it.

 

Some will argue that you should start out on the smaller, less complex bikes. In some aspects I agree... to apoint. The problem there is you grow out of them awfully quick. If you ride a lot of miles, you'll learn to hate the bike quickly. I'm a big fan of large "standards" for starters... The Honda Nighthawk 700-750, or the Yamaha Secca models, or any of the older ZRX1100/1200, Suzuki Bandits would be great choices.

 

I also agree with Tom and Alex on their recommendations, although I'd caution against any bike with extensive plastics as a first bike. It's a given that you will drop your street bike. I've been fortunate to date of not having dropped one since I first started riding, but that first bike, a replica of Prince's Purple Rain bike was a tank and truly easy to drop, because it was so tall, I was so short and it was so heavy!

 

At your size, you'll need "more bike" than the conventional wisdom of some. So I'd caution taking to much advice. Just beware that the bike you buy will have more acceleration than you probably are ready for... Treat it with a broad degree of respect and ride YOUR ride.

 

I've seen a lot of death and destruction around bikes over the years. Those who die ride beyond their skill level and clearly do not respect the bike and their own lack of skills in many cases. I don't recommend large group rides, and I don't recommend riding with anyone that you don't already know to be a safe rider who uses good judgement. Standup wheelies in traffic to look cool might "look cool", but isn't safe, smart, or legal...

 

Above all, don't let the bad influinces of others reel you into an early death or a long stint in the hospital. Your equipment/safety costs should equal the price of the first bike you buy... A great helmet (LOVE my scorpian), bike specific boots with proper ankle/shin protection, a good jacket with CE armor, and proper gloves are a good first start... I dont ride without my safety gear, ever. Dress for the crash, not the ride.

 

Mike

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Good sources for "cheap" safety gear...

 

http://www.newenough.com

 

http://www.helmetsrus.com

 

 

http://www.moto-directory.com/apparel/leathers.asp

 

http://www.motorcycleleatherexchange.com/index.html

 

There are others I'll update later... Lot's of good deals out there on gear for riding and doing track events!

 

Mike

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Okay. Sounds more like underanticipation... or just "blowing the turn."

 

Not sure what happened during the situation to tell you the truth, it just happened. Some country roads back here seem to go straight forever, then all of a sudden it banks right as you get to it. I touched the brakes a bit causing the bike to straighten out a bit too much for the turn. If I leaned into it at the speed I thought I was going to slide it on the brakes, so I went for the softest landing.

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Chris, It sounds like you carried to much speed, hit the brakes and the bike did what it does when you grab a bunch of brake... It stood upright... You should seriously consider a MSF course.

 

I recently took a 1.5 year experienced rider on a 3 day trip with my business partner and I (some of you met Barry at my shindig) and this new guy (good friend of mine, but new rider) was dumbfounded and concerned for MY safety. We took back roads for most of the 1050 miles and I always had to stop and wait for them. In his mind I carried to much speed everywhere, and he did the exact right thing. He rode his pace and let me go off into the wild blue yonder... I blew it off and constantly reminded him that I have 25 years experience and dragging knee on a 550# 1999 ZRX1100 is "normal" for me, and should seem foreign to him.

 

I brake independantly front to rear brake in to, mid, and sometimes, depending on the corner, out of a corner with sometimes rear, front, or both brakes... Again, I've been riding on and off road for over 2 decades... Sliding one end of the bike or the other on pavement feels natural to me.

 

Mike

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Take the MSF then hook up with a racing school whether you wanna be Ricky Racer or a slow-riding cruiser rider. It was a HUGE help to me to become a better, safer street rider as you get to concentrate only on your riding and the turns and the braking rather than cars, rodents, rocks, banana peels, your destination, or your girlfriend. Doing 150 miles at Texas World Speedway (30 in the rain) only 6 months into my riding "career" is the best thing that happened to me and it was SO MUCH FUN.

 

Mike, I respectfully disagree somewhat with you regarding the thoughts on a big bike and/or a more powerful bike being a good first choice. It is, of course, important to fit a bike and be able to handle it. However, almost exclusively, when I hear someone say "I've gotten used to the power, it's time to upgrade," it means they need to stick with their current bike for quite awhile longer and learn to push themselves through their paces on turn, braking, emergency braking and on and on. I, for example, "got used to the power" of my SV650 and was thinking about moving up to a liter twin; a few days later I came out of a turn nearly dragging my knee in 2nd gear while only on the rear wheel - that was a great lesson to me and I still haven't found the limits of this bike.

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Chris, It sounds like you carried to much speed, hit the brakes and the bike did what it does when you grab a bunch of brake... It stood upright... You should seriously consider a MSF course.

 

 

 

After the incident I've been considering the MSF course. I wasn't giving it too much speed, I froze up and decided against the corner. I relised that I can't be afraid, cause thats when I'm gonna cause a problem. I picked my own pace afterwards, but was going to slow. I told my friend to pass me and take the roads at good speed. I mimicked his angles and road position and finally got a feel for what I need to do. I was more ballsy after the incident and thats when I finally gave respect to the bike and found out what I needed to do.

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Mike, I respectfully disagree somewhat with you regarding the thoughts on a big bike and/or a more powerful bike being a good first choice. It is, of course, important to fit a bike and be able to handle it. However, almost exclusively, when I hear someone say "I've gotten used to the power, it's time to upgrade," it means they need to stick with their current bike for quite awhile longer and learn to push themselves through their paces on turn, braking, emergency braking and on and on. I, for example, "got used to the power" of my SV650 and was thinking about moving up to a liter twin; a few days later I came out of a turn nearly dragging my knee in 2nd gear while only on the rear wheel - that was a great lesson to me and I still haven't found the limits of this bike.

 

 

This guy is 265 pounds, and well over 6ft. tall... Any bike will only go as fast as your right hand allows... It's called restraint and respect.

 

And that statement "I've gotten used to the power" is one I often laugh at. The fastest guys at every track day I've been to on motorcycles has always been some little hotshot on an SV650 or similar "small" bike that gets drag raced by the idiots on liter bikes, only to eat their lunch when they park it in every corner...

 

In my opinion, America needs to follow Japan's model for a graduated "tiered" licensing program. You get to graduate to the next size bike once you've proved yourself to be proficient on the bike you're currently licensed for... I'd say that most of the bikes on American roads today have substandard riders piloting them. Go do a couple of track days on your SV650 and you'll have so much more respect for it... It's simply one of the BEST kept secrets in motorcycling.

 

Mike

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This guy is 265 pounds, and well over 6ft. tall... Any bike will only go as fast as your right hand allows... It's called restraint and respect.

 

And that statement "I've gotten used to the power" is one I often laugh at. The fastest guys at every track day I've been to on motorcycles has always been some little hotshot on an SV650 or similar "small" bike that gets drag raced by the idiots on liter bikes, only to eat their lunch when they park it in every corner...

 

In my opinion, America needs to follow Japan's model for a graduated "tiered" licensing program. You get to graduate to the next size bike once you've proved yourself to be proficient on the bike you're currently licensed for... I'd say that most of the bikes on American roads today have substandard riders piloting them. Go do a couple of track days on your SV650 and you'll have so much more respect for it... It's simply one of the BEST kept secrets in motorcycling.

 

Mike

Right on. I'm already there, having been faster than all but one guy out of 40 in our group and the instructors. I ride with these guys -- http://www.ridesmart.info

There are about 5 tracks in the centralish Texas area ridesmart hits. I'm doing some suspension and brake upgrades on my SV650 right now and then I'll be back out soon.

 

For your entertainment, here is a video of me riding (and crashing) on the Dragon, US129, in North Carolina/Tennessee.

The reason I crashed is basically that I got lazy and didn't hang off the bike nearly at all and dragged hard parts until I lost traction.

 

In this video, you can watch me out in front of the SV1000, which is in focus. I rode out in front of him because I had become significantly faster than he and just about everyone in our group except the camera bike. Incidentally, this video is from 10 minutes before the video of my crash. Only the first 4-5 minutes have us in it and you'll see me riding just in front of the SV1000 and pulling away until I'm out of frame and then slow back down so I can be on video

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