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Mid engine AWD RB questions


Chewievette

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I've been searching all night and cant find anything so please dont shoot me... I was able to find some chat about this but not exactly what I'm looking for.

 

I'm looking into building up a custom car as a hobby for the next who cares how many years.. The car I'm mimicking is the Lamborghini Miura, mid engine, rwd, one of the first supercars... Anyways, one of my buddys overheard my rant about not being able to find a transverse 6spd transmission that can handle the power of a v12. So he kindly suggested I just take the drive line out of an R34 skyline and spin it around.

 

Problem is, I dont really want to have five to six reverse gears and only one forward. Since you guys know a heck of a lot more about these parts than I do I wanted to ask if its even possible to flip the drive on this? The simplest way would be to flip the ring gear to the other side, inside the diff, but I dont know if there is physically enough room to do that inside the front diff (rear diff in my application). If thats not possible then I can machine a gear set to fit between the transmission and transfer case, but thats a big headache that I'd like to avoid if at all possible.

 

The other issue is the power distribution, is there a way to lock the transfer case into full time AWD? I seem to remember that the skyline is computer controlled.

 

I know this layout has been done in the past, its in the Tommy Kaira ZZII. Which tells me that it is possible, but I have not been able to find any information about how they flipped the drive.

zz2rb.jpg

 

Thanks in advance for any information, and please forgive for taking up space with my non-z questions. I want to get a better idea of the issues before I buy the parts.

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I've seen a few of the Tommikairas. They don't use the stock tranny. It's completely custom engineered. You're best bet (if you have the space and limited funds) is to use it in true mid-engine format (engine first, tranny in the rear). Eliminate the rear prop shaft and lock out the transfer. The transfer is simply a hydraulically applied clutch drum with chain to the front shaft.

 

There are a host of problems with the front drive differential and axles when you start making serious power in the GT-R. And that's on the no-traction half...

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So would it be a better idea to keep the rb but substitute in a T56 or like, put a more common and stronger transfer case on it then run a couple of also more common and stronger differentials. I think if grab one of the newer front IRS offset differentials and fab up a new oil pan, or even dry sump to wrap around it I can still use that type of layout but get much stronger and more available parts.

 

Of course at that point I have to start debating if the RB is really the engine I want, if I'm doing all that custom drive train work, why not go back to my original v12 idea.

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It sounds to me like your trying to have a rear engined 4wd vehicle as your talking about having 2 diffs??

 

Everyone else seems to be replying to you as if your wanting rear engine with rear drive only.

 

If you can be clear about what your trying to do it will make it easier for everyone to throw ideas around,

 

Rob

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1965_Turin_Salon_Miura_The_Lost_Ark.jpg

Here is a picture showing the layout of the original car...

 

If I can find a suitable transmission I want to run this exact layout. Transverse, Mid-engine, RWD.

 

an idea suggested to me was to use the Longitudinal, Front(mid) engine, AWD layout from the skyline, turn it around and use it in my car. It is a proven setup that can hold a lot of power. Unfortunately, its not as easy as that, too many complications for it to be worthwhile.

 

Stemming from that idea is to re-engineer the skyline layout but use more adaptable and readily available parts. Either the rb or v12 could be used with this setup but the engine remains longitudinal, mid/rear, AWD.

 

I would prefer to have the transverse v12 that I started with but I cant find a transmission that works. Packaging and durability issues are the most common problems. I can see why the lamborghini layout is so unique.

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Looks like the easiest route may be to use it like the TommiKaira set up with the engine in the rear and the trans in the tunnel. You'd have to eliminate the stock pan-differential and go with a different diff that drives forward with clockwise rotation when viewed from the rear of the car. Even then, I wouldn't count on much power. The shaft from the transfer to the front diff is a joke. See attached. The splined shaft is less than 28mm in diameter. That has to drive the whole car... Brings new meaning to the phrase "Oh Snap!" :)

IMG_1630 (Small)_thumb.jpg

IMG_1634 (Small)_thumb.jpg

IMG_1635 (Small)_thumb.jpg

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Mate, I haven't got anywhere near the expertise a lot of the guys on here have but I thought I'd post because your doing exactly what I have been dreaming of for a few years. I doubt I'll ever really try it because the engineering rules for registering a vehicle are impossibly stringent down here. :-(

I had been looking for FWD transmissions based on torque they would tolerate. The best I have found with torque listed are the late model FWD Volvo turbo boxes, V70, S70 HP turbo's from what I can tell generate 300NM. The other box I had found is from Mitsubishi found in what is called a Magna/380 down here, I think it's similar/same as a Diamintina (?). It's a FWD v6 that guys down here have supercharged. Might be the same as in a GTO (?).

Don't know if that helps any, but best of luck building it. I love my Z's but I'd sell them all and a kidney for a Miura!

Mike

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Mate, I haven't got anywhere near the expertise a lot of the guys on here have but I thought I'd post because your doing exactly what I have been dreaming of for a few years. I doubt I'll ever really try it because the engineering rules for registering a vehicle are impossibly stringent down here. :-(

I had been looking for FWD transmissions based on torque they would tolerate. The best I have found with torque listed are the late model FWD Volvo turbo boxes, V70, S70 HP turbo's from what I can tell generate 300NM. The other box I had found is from Mitsubishi found in what is called a Magna/380 down here, I think it's similar/same as a Diamintina (?). It's a FWD v6 that guys down here have supercharged. Might be the same as in a GTO (?).

Don't know if that helps any, but best of luck building it. I love my Z's but I'd sell them all and a kidney for a Miura!

Mike

 

would you be interested in my Maserati Merak,registered in WA with a mid mount 350 chev,5 speed transaxle

it's a classic italian muscle car now:burnout:

may even be able to work out a deal whereby you can keep both kidneys

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It would be nice to see it transverse but I don't know of any other car with a transverse setup that would handle big hp and not have the center of the engine skewed to one side.

 

If you're not set on transverse, you could concievably get away with fitting going cheaper than the "six reverse gear/1 forward gear" setup you would net with the skyline stuff by sourcing the pathfinder 4wd hardware and flipping the diffs over.

 

The FS5R30 tranny in the pathfinder can be fit with different bellhousings since it came with a variety of nissan engines.

 

Porsche hardware would be the next place to research since they can be gotten AWD as well and many of the transaxles are not too hard to change from rear to mid engine as I found out on the 914/6 back in the day.

 

When considering the G50, you would also have to change it to side shifter like much like I had to do when fitting earlier porsche transaxles to a mid-engine configuration.

 

twin turbocharged with 268hp but they also claim to have made the smallest tranny ever (or something like that) which means it probably won't handle much more hp than the stock setup.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Guest james112

I have also been toying with the idea of flipping around a GTR drivetrain. (I'm glad I am not the only crazy one) The idea of having six reverse gears and only one forward gear can be fixed with an inline reverse gear such as this;

http://www.quaife.co.uk/Quaife-reversing-box

they are made for the locost boys running busa engines, but should also work in this application.

 

Another idea, presented to me by a friend, would be to use an S2000 differential, according to him, Honda engines rotate in the opposite direction of most piston engines therefore their differentials would act as an inline reverse when coupled with a non Honda engine. I know nothing about Honda and have no idea if this is valid or not.

 

The ATTESA-ETS system is rear wheel drive until the sensors detect a loss of traction. In this situation that would mean most of the time you would have a mid engine front wheel drive car:icon13:. The transfer case has a differential that is hydraulically engaged. I was thinking either weld up the diff or find a way to fool the sensors.

 

In my opinion if you have lots of time, the tools and the money, it is possible. However, with all that effort, I would say go the extra mile, ditch the RB, make an adapter plate for a nice smooth V12 engine, maybe the BMW.

 

Good luck to you.

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Aren't the Evo Lancer Mitsubishi's transverse front engine AWD? can you hack the side out of the tranny and weld it in on the other side so it pokes out the front instead of the rear, shift the rear diff to the new front and flip it upside down?

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Does it "have" to be awd? I'm sure that you could attach it to a ferio tranny with an adaptor plate.

 

"Or" eliminate the drive shaft, use a rwd oil pan and find a suitable front diff, then just that drive shaft? Might make the car a bit long but I believe that, that is how lambo has its set on some of there cars.

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