getoffmyinternet Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 I still disagree, I'm sure there's people even cheaper than you that have succeeded. Brakes and suspension won't cope? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 Again, Scott Burkhards, 192 to the rear wheels. Cast piston L28 with a worked head and cam running stock SU's. 192 at the rear wheels. Where do you want the 200 and why 200? If you want power, wheezing through normally aspirated engines is a waste of time. An L20ET makes what, 145? and from there to 200 is a twist of the wick and maybe an intercooler... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGRO_RB Posted February 19, 2011 Author Share Posted February 19, 2011 I still disagree, I'm sure there's people even cheaper than you that have succeeded. Brakes and suspension won't cope? The car's currently on its factory struts with King Superlow springs, needless to say its not the firmest ride in the world and I have the occasional issue with understeer due to the front being much firmer than the rear and the rear having way more negative camber than the front, not to mention cheap tires Also, being the second model from base spec, the brakes are crap, disc front drum rear so again, i'd be butchering a de-registered or import DR30 for parts, then upgrades, so thats even more money on top of a swap... I could always throw L20ET manifolds at my E, crank the boost up and hope for the best... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGRO_RB Posted February 19, 2011 Author Share Posted February 19, 2011 Again, Scott Burkhards, 192 to the rear wheels. Cast piston L28 with a worked head and cam running stock SU's. 192 at the rear wheels. Where do you want the 200 and why 200? If you want power, wheezing through normally aspirated engines is a waste of time. An L20ET makes what, 145? and from there to 200 is a twist of the wick and maybe an intercooler... Just read your post, Why 200? Doesn't seem too silly for a daily driven road car but still plenty of fun, a stock standard GTS-T (RB20DET) puts out around 212 and they're great to drive, sedate enough to be driven around normally but still more than enough power to put you on the silly side of the speedo and beyond. Heard a few horror stories about the 20ET and how much of a waste of time they are, apparently it's better to use the 20E head as they flow better and even then they aren't really worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 There you have it, 200HP Turbo makes for a long running engine. A 200HP turbo 2 liter is pretty common as you know. Now I do have a 205 rwhp L20A in an S30... But it makes that power at 8750 rpms. Not exactly streetable. Similarly our L28 makes 320 to the rear wheels, and thats at 8250 rpms. Kind of down on power on our two-liter, but that's due to low compression. If you can't get an L28 to make the 200HP,an L26 will get you close N/A, but it's crankshaft HP. With a turbo (use some of that stock RB Cast-Off Stuff like turbo...) and you can make that 200 to the rear wheels with a little boost and not fuss a lot with the L20 you can get easily enough. Though like you said, RB20DE's are all over the place! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NZeder Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 (edited) Guys I am talking about NZD here - yes you might be able to do in the US for under $5K but here in NZ it is a big ask - not impossible just a big ask for 200HP at the wheels from a L26 or L28 with just $5K to spend on N/A. Head work is what is required and that is going to cost around $2K for the labour from a good shop that knows zed stuff. And that is with you purchasing and importing the new valves etc ie not in the $2K cost. Then a bottom end rebuild - and if you are replacing parts then that will add to the cost. It is impossible to find L26/28 pistons with out a dish locally so again you have to import flat-tops from Oz or the US. If just a hone etc that will keep the cost down (ie no over bore) and bearings etc. $1000 there is parts and labour. Balancing will cost $500-1000 at a guess so that is $2K so now at $4K for the build (again assumes you don't know someone in the trade that owes you a favour or you don't have access to the tools/machines/equipment). Now you start to look at the bits on the side of the motor that will help with the HP goals. Carbs (whatever you choice, SU (round or flat tops) should be setup to match the head work), exhaust again like the carbs - to match head work and cam to get the most out of the system. That will eat the last $1k (you can spend that on the extractors locally here in NZ for the good sets the best sets will be $500 more then if you ceramic coat at least $500 more, and that is the cheaper stuff that can come off on a dyno - the good stuff will be $900) Now if you do it yourself these number will be very different. Like Tony D has stated you could just get a L20ET/RB20DET give it a fresh'n up and don't balancing then you get a good ECU and do the turbo things then 200HP should be easy for same $. However again you will be spending $ on getting either road legal here in NZ via the certification process and that could be anything from $500-1000 in cert fees/checks let along the changes they might get you to do the drive line, suspension/brakes. So I am looking at this not just from the engine point of view but the project as a whole $5K for 200HP and road legal is a big ask - period no matter what engine is chosen due the certification process that is required - more or less will be required depending on the engine chosen etc. I believe a number of guys in Oz have had good success with RB30E in turbo form and the 30E head seems to flow good in turbo apps. Edited February 20, 2011 by NZeder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGRO_RB Posted February 20, 2011 Author Share Posted February 20, 2011 Been talking to a few guys on the SDU forums, the L20ET sounds like a damn good idea, also easy to get power out of using the same mods as an RB20DET, ie RB25DET turbo, 3'' exhaust, intercooler, 2.25'' piping and run it all on a Link G4 Storm (replaces AFM with MAP sensor too) and 200hp should not be a big ask. I have a friend who works at a shop that specialises in engine rebuilds who may be able to cut me cheap labour or at least parts if we decide to assemble the bottome end ourselves, not only that but with ET manifolds on my motor, with a good tune, the better flow of the NA head and higher NA compression I should (in theory) have a responsive, willing motor, the experience i've had with 20DE+T and 25DE+T builds has been great, extremely reliable with a good tune up to 14psi on stock turbos and internals and far more responsive than the factory DET motors, not saying my L20 will be the same by any means in terms of what it'll handle, but the theory's the same. The more good im hearing about the L20ET and how reliable they can be is definitely starting to sell me on one... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayaapp2 Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 (edited) Guys I am talking about NZD here - yes you might be able to do in the US for under $5K but here in NZ it is a big ask - not impossible just a big ask for 200HP at the wheels from a L26 or L28 with just $5K to spend on N/A. Head work is what is required and that is going to cost around $2K for the labour from a good shop that knows zed stuff. And that is with you purchasing and importing the new valves etc ie not in the $2K cost. Then a bottom end rebuild - and if you are replacing parts then that will add to the cost. It is impossible to find L26/28 pistons with out a dish locally so again you have to import flat-tops from Oz or the US. If just a hone etc that will keep the cost down (ie no over bore) and bearings etc. $1000 there is parts and labour. Balancing will cost $500-1000 at a guess so that is $2K so now at $4K for the build (again assumes you don't know someone in the trade that owes you a favour or you don't have access to the tools/machines/equipment). Now you start to look at the bits on the side of the motor that will help with the HP goals. Carbs (whatever you choice, SU (round or flat tops) should be setup to match the head work), exhaust again like the carbs - to match head work and cam to get the most out of the system. That will eat the last $1k (you can spend that on the extractors locally here in NZ for the good sets the best sets will be $500 more then if you ceramic coat at least $500 more, and that is the cheaper stuff that can come off on a dyno - the good stuff will be $900) Now if you do it yourself these number will be very different. Like Tony D has stated you could just get a L20ET/RB20DET give it a fresh'n up and don't balancing then you get a good ECU and do the turbo things then 200HP should be easy for same $. However again you will be spending $ on getting either road legal here in NZ via the certification process and that could be anything from $500-1000 in cert fees/checks let along the changes they might get you to do the drive line, suspension/brakes. So I am looking at this not just from the engine point of view but the project as a whole $5K for 200HP and road legal is a big ask - period no matter what engine is chosen due the certification process that is required - more or less will be required depending on the engine chosen etc. I believe a number of guys in Oz have had good success with RB30E in turbo form and the 30E head seems to flow good in turbo apps. I will probably get flamed by the nay-sayers, but $5K(in USD) will only get me the long block. Valve cover to oil pan no bolt-ons like headers, exhaust, intake, etc. Ive laid it out in detail in my L24 build thread and I've got similar goals in mind(mind that there isnt much on machine costs detailed there yet). If $5k NZD gets you everything it sounds like your in a better position depending on exchange rate(which Im sure is in NZr's favor at this point). My Mikuni Solex triple carbs ran me $400USD and the Mikuni manifold ran me another $250USD. Old Nismo style knockoff header $100USD. Both the headers and the carbs required more money to refresh them. The headers are getting blasted and coated. The intake manifold is new, but is getting ported to suite the cylinder head. The carbs all had to be rebuilt and I expect to have to tune them so add in the costs of tuning. I added a spd transmission$50USD and 240mm clutch/flywheel $125 (parts to support my torque goals). I also purchased a slightly used(2000 miles) set of MSA twice pipes. They were only $50USD. Im still working on the fuel system design, but expect another $350USD at least to bring the fuel system up to my person standards. Im still working on building my own air plenum/filter box. I listed my ignition system plans in my build thread. There is a lot of support that is needed even after the engine is assembled that should be included in the costs as NZeder has. That is to say nothing of certifications that I dont know about being that Im in the US. L20eT sounds like a good idea for the $$$. I recently discovered that there are a a bunch of L20x models out there. Light Duty, Heavy Duty, Turbo, etc You guys would probably be more qualified to determine what there is and what you should use for your build. I only state this in case you have not already realized there were different versions available so you can look it up. Edited February 20, 2011 by rayaapp2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Im not flaming by any means but it's been my experience that people GROSSLY overbuild turbo motors for the HP they expect. Like forged pistons on a 300HP L28. Foolish waste of money IMO. Same for balancing the bottom end, it's a turbo and won't exceed stock rpm limits so with parts simply weight matched, stock balance will be intact. Frankly IMO for 200HP on an L20A, you could keep everything longblock stock, and slap the RB25 turbo on there with an IC and some fuel control. That would do it. A gas flowed head would make more power at lower boost, but if it's cheap you want, and you have a decently performing N/A L20...don't screw up the mix! My L28 came from a corporate Cedric, and I boosted it with uncracked head gasket to 350HP and have run well over 40K miles yet with nary a complaint. And I'm not running the best petrol either, I keep waiting for it to die in some unexpected manner, but it just keeps going and going and going like the energizer bunny. My opinion on building the L is that most people shortcut components and end up with less of an engine than before the y started! Yeah, doing it 'right' is expensive, but for 200HP on an L20A, stock bottom end is more than adequate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NZeder Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 (edited) double post see below Edited February 20, 2011 by NZeder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayaapp2 Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Im not flaming by any means but it's been my experience that people GROSSLY overbuild turbo motors for the HP they expect. Like forged pistons on a 300HP L28. Foolish waste of money IMO. Same for balancing the bottom end, it's a turbo and won't exceed stock rpm limits so with parts simply weight matched, stock balance will be intact. Frankly IMO for 200HP on an L20A, you could keep everything longblock stock, and slap the RB25 turbo on there with an IC and some fuel control. That would do it. A gas flowed head would make more power at lower boost, but if it's cheap you want, and you have a decently performing N/A L20...don't screw up the mix! My L28 came from a corporate Cedric, and I boosted it with uncracked head gasket to 350HP and have run well over 40K miles yet with nary a complaint. And I'm not running the best petrol either, I keep waiting for it to die in some unexpected manner, but it just keeps going and going and going like the energizer bunny. My opinion on building the L is that most people shortcut components and end up with less of an engine than before the y started! Yeah, doing it 'right' is expensive, but for 200HP on an L20A, stock bottom end is more than adequate. I say that though in reference to my NA L24. I made good power with a stock L28et. Well over 200. Cost me under $1000 to build it. I left everything other than the head gasket and cam alone on the inside. Trying to squeeze more power from the NA is a different story when your trying to achieve close to 100% VE... Over 100% being the goal(turbo is cheating in the realm of VE! ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NZeder Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 (edited) Yeah, doing it 'right' is expensive, but for 200HP on an L20A, stock bottom end is more than adequate. Could not agree more. L20ET stock level RPM with some bolt on mods and good ECU and you will be away. As these cars were L20ET I don't see you will have to many issues cert wise either. ARGO_RB - there is a L20ET turbo manifold on trademe right now too so that will help with the start of the project and $100 no reserve auction here is the link http://www.trademe.c...n-355978817.htm Also check out Daniel's other listing he has a lot of what you would require + he has been running a L28ET for a few years now so would be a good get his feedback also (For those State side L28ET are not available here in NZ so we make them up using L20ET parts and L28 ) Edited February 20, 2011 by NZeder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGRO_RB Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 Cheers mate, dont know if you know of StageFumer (member here and on SDU) but i've hit him up for a 20ET manifold he has, just waiting for a reply now, I honestly wish someone wouldve told me the potential of an L20ET earlier! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 I was very happy with my L20ET turbocharger and exhaust manifold on my N/A L28 conversion... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGRO_RB Posted February 22, 2011 Author Share Posted February 22, 2011 Oh well the parts collection has begun, bought an exhaust manifold, now trying to source a turbo which shouldn't be too hard, then its time to pull the motor out and make a start... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zredbaron Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 (edited) I'd say headers are definitely underestimated, but people can get a little crazy with how big they think they need. There are exhaust diameter calculators for this and the numbers seem to always come out surprisingly low. There can also be such a thing as too big. I second this with a *foot stomp* in recognition that not everyone agrees. When selecting primary size for my recent purchase of Stahl headers, I emailed Stahl directly to see if their opinion matched some of the advice I received here on HybridZ. It did. The larger primaries allow higher peak hp, and smaller primaries allow a wider torque band. (Note the careful word choice of "allow" -- the rest of the engine is crucial.) The only time you want large primaries is if the engine is primarily used at WOT -- drag racing and road racing. Step it down a notch (or two, depending on cfm numbers and cam) for autocross or a high performance street rod. From the horse's mouth (Jere Stahl): Hi Mark, Jere here using Judy's computer. In the early years when 280Z was top dog in SCCA CP we would go to 1-3/4 around 295 to 300 HP. Of course they were interested only in power above 5000. I have no modern dyno data on 6 cyl Datsun engines so I have no idea what the shape of the power curve is from 1500 to 5000 and that can be a major issue in the driveability of an auto cross vehicle. However, my experience with engines proves that intake port shape has more to do with driveability than any other single component including exhaust and camshafts. Certainly going to EFI will be an extremely wise choice and allow you to properly tune with the handicaps of carburetors. Just remember, that too large in the exhaust is far worse than too small. The bold part is of course a profound statement if his experience is on point. His company is recognized nationally by many as *the* header upgrade, and he only offers exhaust for dedicated race cars. That makes his experience rock-solid in my book. Edited March 8, 2011 by zredbaron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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